doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com J. Springer 16ga

Hello experts!

I've come across one that is completely new to me while helping to price an estate for a friend of mine who has a business clearing gun estates.

This is a 16ga sidelock with a Greener crossbolt stamped " J Springer" and "Wein" on the barrels with a 4 digit serial number on the lower tang. Modest engraving and Belgian proof marks. I did a little bit of research and it seems like the company produced high end firearms early on in Austria and then was sold in the late 50s. My guess is that this was made in the 60s sometime by the new owner? Anyone have a clue?

It's a svelt 6lbs 2 oz, 28" barrels with a small wrist/frame reminiscent of my AH Fox guns. Points quite nicely.

It will go to auction eventually, just no clue where to start the bidding. Any information is helpful.

C2F6415C-4D82-43D0-8200-37BA0529E45D_1_105_c by Shane Bevel, on Flickr


Thanks!
ShaneB

BF8B2D6B-B989-4AFD-A0A8-E6EA34DF3B3D_1_105_c by Shane Bevel, on Flickr

34405794-367B-4A9F-B060-BDA677AE7E18_1_105_c by Shane Bevel, on Flickr

31231430-0CD7-4158-B74E-F334950154BC_1_105_c by Shane Bevel, on Flickr

Johann Samuel Springer died in 1875 but the business carried on thereafter. Raimey will know the details.
Current
https://connecticutshotgun.co/galazan-gazette/christian-johann-springer/
Looks like a sideplated boxlock with a lettre annale 'q' for 1938
65 mm chambers
Tubes by Delcour Dupont (Crowned D) using quality steel from Cockerill
Are there no maker's initials on the action flats or further forward on the barrels?

Thank Drew... that date would certainly match the frame and stock size of the gun better. Let me check again and see if I see anything else. I may have missed it for sure. I am way more well-versed in American arms from that period.

Hopefully Drew Hause will be able to tell you the date code - it looks like a block q but I don't find a date to match on the references I found.

It's a "side-plated boxlock" not a sidelock, and will generally be worth much less than a sidelock.

Thanks! FlyChamps! I do see the boxlock hiding there now. I photograph the firearms for the company and I just grabbed a few quick phone photos to post here. I am photographing a lot of 100+ firearms for them next week and will have better photos then.

The only story we have is that the previous owner bought it "in the 80s" because it was pretty and cheap. He thinks he "may have paid a couple hundred for it." They emailed the Springer company I suppose and got an email back that was run through google translate (no judgement... their english is likely FAR better than my German!), but the records they had seemed to show that serial number belonging to a hammer gun made in the 1800s, so there is a disconnect somewhere.

Odd that it doesn't wear the >>Erben<< stamp. Too, this was ordered by Springer from the mechanics in Liège just as the Germans were expanding their footprint. Ah, my knowledge is cursory but I know someone who has info:

Text by Mr. Felix Neuberger:

>>Johann Springer's Erben translates to John Springer's heirs.
Once upon a time there has been a Viennese gunmaker whose guns
and rifles built between the wars were on a par with anything
else built in old Europe.Their customers were the aristos and the grand bourgeoisie of central and eastern Europe. By 1945
this customerset did not exist anymore. There emerged in recent
years 2 Springer weapons in US which may exemplify it. The biggest Springer customer has been the Polish Lubomirsky
arissto clan ordering a total of 34. One of them has been mayor
of Warsaw whose double rifle came on the US market recently.
Unfortunately he made a letal misjudgement on the benevolence
of the Gestapo/SS at the time of the invasion in 1939 .
Another has been count Josip Bombelles from a balkan country
in the southeast of Europe, whose nr. 1 of his trio emerged
in recent years in US. He has been a high-level diplomat and
politican, unfortunately on the wrong political side which
could be fatal in these countries. He survived an assassination
attempt, finally deported to and killed in the concentration/
death camp of Jasenovac in 1942.
The new customers of Springer from 1945 have been the officers
of the occupation forces to Austria (Russian, American).
With the state treaty in 1955 these folks returned to their
countries and Springer had to shut down the production of his
de-luxe weapons.
So what happened to the workshop people.
Hans Piffl, their Werkmeister (foreman/workshop manager) from
1939 on, left in 1954 and took over the gunshop of
"M�llers Witwe" in the provincial spa-town of Baden.He later
changed the shopname to "Hans Piffl" and finally sold
his gunshop in 1964 upon his retirement.
Herbert Winkler, their junior engraver, left already
beginning of the 1950's due to missing work and got a job in the electro-industry. He continued as freelance engraver
until his death few years ago.
Hans Jiricek, their stocker, left and started to work for
Piffl until finally becoming freelance stocker on his own.
No-name guns are a fascinating element of the collectors scene. I mean with it either a gun without any name on it
or with an unknown name. I recall a Belgian sidelock in
an English auction with an outstanding piece of rose-bouquet engraving. The disassembly brought the answer with the
engravers name "Smeets".
There emerged a "no-name Piffl" sidelock ejector recently
in Austria which I bought. Not knowing who Piffl was, I have to admit that I have been puzzled. Because the gun had all the typical elements of a classical Springer .
It's the slender toplever, the form of the triggerguard shaped along a "Springer-egg" mould and above all Springer's inhouse
engraving a-la-Matzinger.
(Matzinger is for Springer what Lukas is for Purdey and
Sumner for Boss)
It has Belgian barrels with Viennese proofmarks dated 1963.
A question to Hans Jiricek brought the enlightement as he told that Piffl has been the Werkmeister when he joined Springer
in 1944.
So what do we have: A sidelock ejector built in the best
tradition of the house of Springer, built by their
ex-Werkmeister, engraved by their ex-engraver (with his
hidden initials as signature) and stocked by their ex-stocker
and according an insider from parts left over.
De jure a Piffl, de facto the last Springer, years after
they ceased their production .

Photos :

Hans Piffl-Werkmeister from 1939 to 1954
He has been a Springer trained gunsmith.
The photo shows members of the Springer crew attending
a "Gewerbe-Festzug" (trade-corso) in 1928.
Hans Piffl is second from right, with apron, holding
a barreled-action in the white.
(Photo courtesy J. Springer's Erben)
http://www.jpgbox.com/page/50429

Hans Piffl order to Hans Jiricek
http://www.jpgbox.com/page/50370

Herbert Winkler - engraver
http://www.jpgbox.com/page/50368

Herbert Winkler - at work
http://www.jpgbox.com/page/50369

Hans Jiricek - stocker
A descendant of a Czech (location Racice) immigrant to Vienna
at the end of the 19th century.
Aged 85, still active, the living anti-thesis to
the early-retirement mainstream of the public sector.
Austria's Red Bull Empire (formula one racing cars, energy
drink, stratospheren jump) has a retro-livestyle magazine
"Servus". Their scouting cowboys finally detected
Hans Jiricek and he was featuring in one of their papers.
When I met him and congratulated him to his new stardom he answered that the article is a curse as people curiously were flooding his workshop to chat or bringing guns for repair.
He simply commented "ich komme mehr zu keiner Arbeit".
http://www.jpgbox.com/page/50367

Piffl(Springer) sidelock ejector gun
http://www.jpgbox.com/page/50371
http://www.jpgbox.com/page/50372
http://www.jpgbox.com/page/50374

Springer egg-mould
http://www.jpgbox.com/page/50430<<

https://www.doublegunshop.com/forum...p;Words=erben&Search=true#Post423344

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Screenshot 2024-08-29 at 1.23.13 PM by Shane Bevel, on Flickr
Screenshot 2024-08-29 at 1.23.34 PM by Shane Bevel, on Flickr
Screenshot 2024-08-29 at 1.23.22 PM by Shane Bevel, on Flickr

Here is a more complete set of markings.

Thanks Shane. I've never seen the Crowned D in that location. Delcour DuPont may have been making tradename guns, or at least have been part of the process
https://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20d/a%20delcour%20dupont%20gb.htm

It is a 100% Belgian sideplated A&D Body Action boxlock badged with Springer's name & location. I can't say that it is properly badged without >>Erben<<. So really it is a Belgian Sideplated Boxlock with J. Springer on it...


Some info from a forced translation:

"The company history extends back to the 1830s. At that time, let the gunsmith Mathias Nowotny from Hradec Kralove down in Vienna. In 1836 he was authorized to practice his profession. He quickly became successful and was able to find the shop in the Josefstadt a branch on the vine-im-Eisen-Platz 5 in the 1st District building. In 1856 he shot himself, however, and his widow sold a year later the business to John Springer.
John Springer was from Leutschach in Upper Hungary, and came as an engraver to Vienna. He mastered the art of the arms of the noble metal engraving in fine customers. He also learned the gunsmith and later married Catherine Nowotny, the sister of Mathias Nowotny. Springer worked for 15 years Nowotny, whose confidence he enjoyed. After the death of Nowotny and the takeover of the company, in 1857 he changed the company name to "John Springer, formerly Mathias Nowotny" around.
He specialized in the production of luxury hunting weapons , and won by the quality of the products several medals at exhibitions. The Emperor was one of the regulars and 1872 gave him this title imperial chamber , a higher markup than the Hoflieferantentitel.
John Springer died in 1875 and his widow had to run the company while seven children are concerned. The sons and Gustav Rudolf Springer completed their training as part of the company Brandl�n in Birmingham, later took over the company in 1888 and changed the name to "Johann Springer's Erben. In the same year had the old house on a stick-in-place iron Springer leave as it is for the new Palais Equitable should be demolished.
The brothers Rudolf and Gustav Springer could establish the factory on. The products were awarded the Golden Austrian State Prize and other awards at international exhibitions like the 1908 Grand Prix of Monte Carlo. In the 1930s, Springer was appointed royal purveyors of Monaco.
The kuk Hoflieferantentitel was again awarded 1911th In addition to the emperor and the imperial court as Archduke Franz Ferdinand and Archduchess Maria Theresa, the company had with its customers many noble families, including Liechtenstein , Esterh�zy , Coburg and Orlowski . Business was good and in 1912 the company had one million gold crowns over debts. Springer had his own factory and display at the Joseph Lane 10 in the 8th District and three local sale in Vienna, including the Stock-im-Eisen Platz 5 in under 1 District and Mariahilf. The branch on the 1st District later moved to the address pit 10 around.
The First World War and the collapse of the monarchy brought the company on hard times. During the Second World War the company had to include parts for the V2 weapons manufacturers.
After the second world war were to continue to produce guns. Customers have included Soviet Marshal Konev, General Kaltschenko, allied officers and big-game hunter Ernst twin . In 1949, Johann Springer's daughter Margaret's business. The weapons production had to be finally set in December 1955. The trade in weapons remained a line of business, with industrial customers were like. However, the debt grew and in 1958 had the heiress of the family estate and the factory, sell it to stabilize the finances.
On 1 April 2008, Christian Johann Springer's company of his mother Margaret Weixelbraun. On Kagranerplatz eight branch was extended: it now leads hunting and sporting weapons, military, pistols and reloading products to 370 square feet. The former stores the trench 10 and the Habsburg lane 8 were transferred to the Weihburggasse 27. At 700 square feet on three floors hunting weapons are new or used available. In addition to the traditional segment of arms for hunting and sporting weapons, military, pistols and reloading products, the company is expanding into other areas and has been autumn hunting trips and weapons auctions in 2008."

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

A Love Triangle of Sorts with a suicide w/ a weapon pretty much sums up the beginning.....

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Raimey, thanks for all of the great information. These guns and companies certainly all have a fascinating background story!

One last question... do you concur with Drew that the proof marks indicate a proofing date of 1938? Any thoughts on value? Just basically the same as all the other leige guns... 1500-2500?

My Belgian date code list also agrees with 1938.

Um, Hause is seldom wrong, if ever. But there is just something awry with everything surrounding this longarm & it may just be a point in history & JSE(Joh. Springer's Erben) had to place an order with the mechanics in Liège in an attempt to fill the order of a customer during difficult times. Now Vienna started to experience turmoil in 1933 when parliament was dissolved and it has been said that by early 1934 some has crossed swords over a difference of opinion. Their constitution was suspended and a „Ständestaat“ style ruling was implemented. Then 4 short years later this J. Springer was ordered & about the same time, the „Anschluß Österreichs“ occurred in March where German annexed Austria. So strange things happens when there are major disagreements and swords are crossed and that may go along away in explaining this. As Hause notes, the touchmarks are in stellar form and not worn @ all. Too, those Crown over D's high on the tubes are quite odd.

What type buttplate & does it have a menacing muzzle w/ crosshatching between the tubes?

Yeah, $1200 - $2000 if you can get it.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

There is of course one opinion I would chase & that is of Mr. Felix Neuberger, if indeed he is still with us. I will try to raise him in an effort to obtain some answers.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Too, as a plug to the goings on @ the onset to the 2nd Major Disagreement(WWII) regarding Austria, CZ, Poland there are a couple good flicks playing that demonstrate, and somewhat sugar-coat/make the events palatable/view-able, one is >>One Life<< and another is >>Irena's Vow<< that really make one pause and think, could that happen here in the U.S. of A.?

The mechanics @ Liège were under the thumb of the Germans since pre-WWI but Germany didn't invade the Low Countries until 1940 when Germany was trying to topple France.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

www.springer-vienna.com
They were very quick to answer my inquiries

I just don't think it will be in their ledger, but I hope I am mistaken. So this smokepole will be judged solely on its own merit - a Delcour DuPont sideplated A&D Boxlock, possibly retailed in Vienna by J. Springer, which might add couple $100 to someone knowledgeable or smitten¿

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

They were for us too! But the entry they had in the ledger was for another very different gun. So Raimey is correct. It's not something they logged one way or another.

I agree on the tumult of the region likely adding to the oddity of the gun and can absolutely see them trying to stay afloat by offering lower end guns... and at the same time not putting them in the ledger. Or... for that matter... someone else might have simply decided to stamp it themselves and retail it somewhere completely unrelated!

I'll have to get a photo of the top of the barrels... but the stamp up top is not well done, light and off center. It doesn't match the quality or depth of the rest of the markings. Also interesting is that it doesn't say Joh. Springer Erben or even Joh. Springer. But simply "J. Springer"

It is in nice shape and would make a nice gun to carry after quail or the like with loads from RST or Polywad. The dimensions are decent and I bet that your pricing is spot on. When it sells I'll post the result here just to close out the string for the next fellow.

Thanks to all of you for your help on this one. I learned a lot and that's what I love about playing around in this particular sandbox.

Thanks
Shane

We would very much like to hear the realized price.

I do have it on good authority that the sporting weapon is indeed a JSE(Springer) retailed one, and more than likely to fill an order. JSE preferred the wares of A. Francotte & perhaps his ship was overloaded @ the time of the order. In Europe, it is just seen as a JABC. Across the Austro-Hungarian Empire at hamlets like Tisza St. Imre, Hungary or Nikitsch, Austria, it would fetch little but hopefully a Springer aficionado with a penchant for the period will snap it up?

Last, there might, might be some clues on the backside of the sideplates that establish a maker. In the end, it is what it is, a piece from the Golden Era of Gunning, crafted in subset difficult period of survival.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

And if you have the slightest interest in similar sporting weapons from a similar period, albeit from the end of the 2nd Major Disagreement in Europe while the treatment wasn't any less severe in some instances. Purportedly, the Russian would hold the German mechanics in a cellar & beat them with a rubber hose @ least once a week just for good measure.....

>>Very unique, and I for one would say rare, Ferlacher by Boštjan Borovnik. When the Germans invaded Austria in the Spring of 1938(March I think), they tried to force Ferlach makers to hire German mechanics. Boštjan Borovnik refused & refused being loyal to his roots and he received beating after beating until 1942 when the occupying Germans decided that Boštjan Borovnik wasn't going to break so they rounded up he, his son & to other kids along with his wife & sent them to a Work Camp. The occupying Brits released him in early 1945 and by July Boštjan Borovnik and his family was back in Ferlach where he, and his son, filed for reparations. His son was attending the Ferlacher Gunsmith School when they were rounded up & he filed and received some type of compenstation. Boštjan Borovnik lived till 1949 and this longarm was completed in 1946 for a British Officer, who would have purchased this @ a Collection / Selling Point in the centre of Ferlach.<<

https://www.doublegunshop.com/forum...ords=borovnik&Search=true#Post647776

Yes, I thoroughly enjoy the above smokepole & will press it into use very soon....

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

It looks like it has ejectors and has the hinge pin covers that come off and you are able to unscrew the hinge pin or rotate it and then stake it with the screw that goes through the receiver shown in the first of the last three pictures. I'm guessing it might even have side clips.

Dear Raimey: did you succeed, and is Felix - hopefully - still among us?

Carcano

Ah, I typically succeed but I don't recall on this one. Indeed, Mr. Felix Neuberger is doing very well for his age & stokin' his wood stove with pellets, I would say, due to the Russian Gas Issue. He still likes to hunt Hares, but almost all of his Hare Hunting buddies have moved on to the Happy Hunting Grounds. Mr. Neuberger has had some fatal computer issues this past year and until recent months hasn't been on the WWW.


Serbus,


Raimey
rse