doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com French 16g sxs

Thank you for the thoughts so far , Argo44 , the stamp you have pointed to is GAF with a border around it , i will endeavour to get and post a better picture of it . Ted thankyou for posting the pictures for me . I could not find any reference as to what GAF means or represents . Although i did find a small amount about Helice . Best regards Geoff

Ted, Gene and FAB are the French experts. This is a long thread regarding French powders and proof
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=618070

The double preliminary proof indicates the tubes were proved at 16,356 psi + 10 - 14% for modern transducer measurement
The single Crowned PT indicated final proof at 12,090 psi + 10 - 14% for a service pressure of about 9000 psi



I can't make a 'GAF' out of the Fs listed here
https://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/a%20a%20artisans%20identifies%20gb.htm#F

Researched "GAF" using various combinations of French names and words (Arme, Armurier, Armurerie, Fabricant, Garnisseur, etc.) and ran "GAF" through Naturabuy.Fr with no results. Pretty much a dead end at this point. Will continue to fiddle with it. Gene

Drew,
Kind of you, but, for clarification, I am a student of the Darne gun. Anything else I know was incidental to seeking knowledge on that marque.

Best,
Ted

Me neither (but in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king).

and, a "point of order" regarding the use of the term "double proof" - and this gets pretty sticky. using steindler's translation of wirnsberger's text on proof marks....from some point (could be 14 july, 1860; could be 22 april, 1868; could be 1869) st. etienne offered a standard "single proof" (consisting of a single st etienne mark), or a "re-enforced proof" (shown by two marks). at no point in his text is the term "re-enforced proof" presented as a double proof, there are three different places where he states "the double imprint of these marks signified re-enforced proof".

then in 1885, the parliament approved new rules, which were signed into effect by the president - and this is the event that (inadvertently) canceled obligatory proof in france. and until france joined the rest of the proof countries (at the international proof conference in 1914), all proof testing in france was purely voluntary. steindler states that the arms makers never ceased to proof, and that "the french arms industry gained rather than lost ground and prestige". during this period the marks themselves remained (largely) unchanged.

in november 1895, the paris proofhouse was established, and accepted the st. etienne rules for semi-smokeless proofs. as of 30 july 1897, double marks still indicate re-enforced proof, and at some point in 1901, a more powerful proof was introduced in st. etienne (and quickly adopted in paris) - and this where it gets sticky - THREE marks indicated double proof, and FOUR marks indicated triple proof.

"On the 18th December 1923, new proof rules were introduced. Retained was the standard and re-enforced proof which was not identical to either the double or triple proof mentioned above, but the proof marks remained the same. Consequently, it has become almost impossible to attempt to 'date' a gun by means of the proof marks unless the year of proof is known. While high or excessive pressures may well show up a fault, either in material or design of a gun, the exploitation of high pressures as a means of advertising became wide spread in France."

then on 4 june, 1926, to conform with international standards, french proof marks became typical (and much more easily understood)....one mark is standard (14,223 psi), two marks are double (16.356 psi), and three marks are triple proofed (18,490 psi). if you reference the chart that docdrew provides you will see that it pertains to this post 1923 era....and that fact leaves a large number of guns marked with powder T (starting around 1900) and coming forward until 1923-4, that are subject to much conjecture if they are marked with either two or three stamps. based on my understanding, a single stamp will always mean the same thing - and four stamps will always mean a triple proof (sometime between 1901 and 1924). but, two or three stamps are easily misinterpreted....this should give everyone a chance to scratch their head!

best regards,

tom

Thank you Tom. JayCee provided this information, in the other thread, from 1920 for Preliminary Proof



12g
-First proof: 11 grams of BPnº2 and 70 grams of nº8 shot for 941 kg/cm2 = 13,384 psi
-Finished barrels: 10 grams BPnº2 and 60 grams of nº8 shot for 791 kg/cm2 = 11,250 psi
-Superior proof: 14.5 grams BPnº2 and 75 grams of nº8 shot for 1133 kg/cm2 = 16,115 psi
-Double proof: 20 grams BPnº2 and 120 grams of nº8 shot for 1441 kg/cm2 = 20,500 psi
-Triple proof: 30 grams BPnº2 and 180 grams of nº8 shot for 1726 kg/cm2 = 24,550 psi
The BPnº2 is called in French "Poudre Noire Forte Nº2.

These numbers are different; from https://www.shotguns.se/html/france.html
14,223 psi = 1000 Kg/mm2 Provisional Proof
16,356 psi = 1150 Kg/mm2 Reinforced Proof
17,779 psi = 1250 Kg/mm2 Double Proof

I haven’t spent a lot of time (actually, none) worrying about the level of proof on my French guns. The barrel diameter, measured 9” from the breech, was stamped on the flats. Measure the bores to see if they have been tampered with, if not, use the gun with the appropriate ammunition. The proof level is higher and the wall thickness typically is as well, to pass that higher proof.

Typical hunting loads in my world aren’t going to hurt a French gun that remains in proof.

Best,
Ted

Thank you for all the information , it is gratefully received best regards Geoff

The barrel borer is P. Bouchet not Boucher. I misspelled it on my searches. Can't find anything about Bouchet. So the gun remains a mystery.