doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Hammer Gun Practice For Upcoming Grouse Season

I took the William Powell out to the sporting clays range for fun and practice. Grouse season is only a few days away here in Montana.

I believe the gun is as important as the quarry and love to take these old hammer guns hunting…

Good practice and good shooting, Kirk.

If you didn't do so already, try calling for the bird with low gun and hammers uncocked, cocking them as you mount. Great practice for flushing birds.

Beautiful old guns! I'm considering using my 1866 Lang for the dove opener here for the same reasons. But...even with the non-rebounders, cocking is a challenge to do in a timely fashion (for a smooth mount before firing). Thankfully, in pass-shooting, that's not as critical. I'm also considering using a 1901 Smith hammer on pheasants this late Fall, but that gun is even more of a challenge in that regard (it has rebounders, combined with fairly heavy springs).

I also have a 16 gauge 1866 Lang nonrebounder that I hunt Quail with. I can cock both hammers simultaneously at the flush while mounting the gun; it is a somewhat awkward mount but I've killed a fair number of Quail with it when I point it correctly.

Very few of us can cock both hammers at one time, so we cock the close hammer to take the first shot. It is hard to reach the off hammer for the second shot if you take your first shot with the close hammer (right hammer for a right handed shooter). The solution is to cock the off hammer on the mount and take your first shot with the off hammer. Cocking the close hammer (the right one) after the first shot is a piece of cake, almost as fast as pulling the rear trigger on a hammerless gun. Your grip on the gun is not disturbed as it is when switching from right to left after the first shot.

Except pretty much every sxs out there made for a right handed shooter, unless it has the same choke in both barrels has the tighter choke in the left barrel. Makes no sense to me to make the first shot with the tighter choke when the target is closest, then follow-up on a more distant target with a more open choke. Of course, if you are shooting a modern gun with screw in chokes you can configure it to use as you suggest with the tighter choke in the right barrel. Then again, perhaps I am not understanding your post correctly.

lovely Gon's...

what make are they?

Not everyone worries about the "correct" choke. I guess the objective is to get a shot off quickly and have a chance at a quick second shot.

I will say that both of my british hammerguns have had the left hammer replaced leading me to believe that Bill is correct on how the guns were used. Left barrel first.

Why do you suppose that the makers typically put the tighter choke in the left barrel then?…OR, if it doesn’t matter, why make them different at all?

Bob;

Your comments about the Lang hammergun reminds me of a Fraser 1887 12 bore30 inch barreled hammergun that I had 25 years ago choked cyl in right barrel and full choke in left barrel. I could cock both hammers with one hand with it also; and I remember killing a pair of quail out in Texas on a covey rise with it. It was a lovely gun and I had the late Oscar Gaddy color case harden the action on it.

We're talking about a sudden unexpected flush. If I had a bird pointed and held I would cock both hammers and shoot right then left. I didn't say it was for every situation. I do think in driven shooting the left barrel was often used first as birds came into range and then the right as the birds were closer. No set rules just adapt to the situation.

If we all went by W.W. Greener's recommendation, we would just walk around with them cocked at all times!

Nobody's going to answer you because everyone else read the first post and remembered what the OP said the gun is. Not you. You have wanted other people to do the "leg work" you ever since you came on this forum.

I have trouble getting my cigarette into my mouth at the flush and having time left to get a hammer back in the bent……



Just kidding, but, hats off to you guys that can pull it off on a truly wild flush. I’m going to run with, “a man’s got to know his limitations”.

Best,
Ted

The "left barrel first" system that I use is not for pointed birds. Pointed birds allow for the deliberate cocking of both barrels. In fact, the "left barrel cocking on the flush" often allows for the cocking of the right barrel once the mount is complete. The point I make is that cocking the left barrel with the gun mounted is a bit clumsy and requires a change in the grip.

In the very early hammer guns, choke wasn't even an option so cocking and firing the left side first seems like a plausible solution. I know this is controversial, but when hunting alone on fairly even ground (i.e., on mowed Minnesota grouse trails) my hammers are usually cocked. Not sure what I'll do in December on wild South Dakota pheasants. If I can't do it safely then...I'll use a modern weapon I suppose.

I like to use hammer guns too. I especially like the Daws patent gun in the first picture. I have one also but marked Frederick Gates of Derby. Is yours a George Henry Daw or marked up by someone else? Lagopus.....

"Diversity"...









as it is practiced by me. With similar dimensions(30-inch tubes, ~14-inch LOP), the Lang weighs 6lbs5, the Smith is 7lbs14. Open chokes (Lang) and modified (Smith). Both are Damascus, 3-bar and 2-bar respectively (English Browned & then American Black & White) with non-rebounding hammers and then rebounding (on the Smith).

I shoot both with good results. The Lang being old(er) and so-much lighter, has been largely consigned to upland hunting use. The Smith, being fairly robust, has been my Vintager target gun all this summer. I'd like to use it on gamebirds this Fall as well.



Need to duplicate this with the Smith...

For me it is easier to cock the right hammer first on the flush. If I need a second shot or multiple bird flush I reach up and cock the far hammer. To me the first shot is the most important. On waterfowl I will cock both barrels as the ducks approach the decoys. I hunt alone most of the time, if I have a partner in the boat/blind I cock the near barrel as I raise the shotgun. I have both sxs and o/u hammer guns.

Oskar: Unless we're fortunate enough to be shooting over dogs, that is likely how I will use the Smith gun in South Dakota this December. Since I'm a "Southpaw" it'll be the left hammer first.

I find it pretty easy to sweep both hammers when mounting my hammer gun. I'm not sure I would find it ideal for grouse, but certainly, it would be quite doable though heavy 8+ lbs and 32". But I try to buy hammer guns with low hammers that are close enough together to do this easily. Perhaps it would be worth measuring a few guns that we all have and comparing notes.

I've owned a number of hammer guns over the years and still own five - one each in 10, 12, 16, 20 and 28 gauge. The only gun on which I was ever consistently able to cock both hammers on the mount was a Bernardelli Italia 12 gauge, which I sold when I acquired my Charles Moore in the same gauge. The guns range in age from the 1880s (I. Hollis 10 gauge) to 2013 (S.I.A.C.E. 28 gauge). Cocking both hammers simultaneously consistently is a lot harder than you think.

https://www.gunsinternational.com/g...mer-gun-by-t-h-king.cfm?gun_id=102579024

above is link to images and description of rare 20 ga T&H King hammer gun...

new owner plans to use it in the foot hills north of spokane, wa in pursuit of several species of game birds...

wishing him every success...

I have done the same. I still think the best looking SXS has hammers and sidelocks…

Rem 40x: Like you, I have not found cocking on the flush to be simple or efficient (at least yet). I might be able to develop something with my non-rebounding Lang, but that Smith is a handful, especially the left-side hammer. Per David Williamson here, this particular variant is the 2nd type of bar-action used at Fulton (where the hammers dip below line-of-sight) and they have substantial springs (at least this one does!).

In looking at my earlier photography, the width of that Elsie action is substantial as well. "Sweeping" them both with one motion to cock them would take a far-larger (& stronger) set of hands than I currently posess.

Shrapnel, the gun you picture with the breech spewing smoke is probably the nicest hammer gun I have ever seen. Makes my Purdey pigeon gun look like a Mossburg. Can we see some other views of that gun with the maker identified. Thanks. Murphy

I do not have the strength or the dexterity to mount my hammer gun when a bird flushes and to simultaneously pull back both hammers. If I am alone I hunt with both hammers cocked, always keeping the gun pointed away from the pups. I know this is an unsafe method. When hunting with friends I have kept the barrels open slightly with both hammers cocked. I can then quickly close the barrels while mounting the gun if a bird is moved. This method can be problematic, however, when hunting in heavy cover. In short, I really don't have a good and safe way to efficiently hunt upland birds afield. As a result, I rarely bring my old London, "Best" hammer gun afield these days, and that is a shame.

I wonder if some of the cocking difficulties could be in technique rather than strength and dexterity.

When I carry a double for pheasants, my thumb is over the hammers and my entire hand is probably rotated slightly towards the top of the gun, and the barrels are held higher than the wrist. Cocking happens while the barrels are still fairly high relative to the wrist and is almost the first part of the mounting process. My thumb cocks the left side but it is as much the web between thumb and first finger that is cocking the right barrel at the same time. As the barrels come down and butt comes up, the gun is cocked, and the right hand rotates slightly to the shooting position. It is very quick and simple. But if I mounted first, then cocked, I think it would be quite a bit more difficult.

While some guns are easier than others, it does not take much strength or dexterity to do this with any of them, which is why I think that it may be technique that is the issue.

Maybe this will help someone.

As I posted earlier, I prefer to cock the left hammer on the mount, and unlike Brent, not worry about cocking the right hammer until the mount is complete or the first shot is made. The right hammer cock is almost instantaneous and second nature, so I don't worry about it.

one thing that has not been mentioned in this exchange is that, in addition to physical strength, the size of one's hands plays a significant role in the process. if you're 6' 4", and wear size 13 boots, there is much likelier chance that you can sweep both hammers in a single motion. i'm 5' 7", and wear size 9 boots, and the only gun that i could single motion cock was a sauer modell 4 in 16 gauge - and it was dependent upon technique.

of course it doesn't help that in 1975, i trimmed about 1/2" off my right thumb in a power jointer - but even if there were not the case, it would still be a tall order for me to single motion cock any typical double.

best regards,

tom

Curious. What is the difference between cocking both hammers when stalking and believing game is near, and taking the safety off a box lock under the same circumstances?

I guess I don't do either one.

I was taught never to trust a safety. The best assurance of safe gun handling is where the muzzle points. Just saying and not trying to create a controversy. It just seems that snap shots while stalking are not that common.

There is a difference between using a safety and trusting a safety. We have all been through this before.

Professor, then why not trust your trigger control on cocked hammers? I cock my hammers....when appropriate. But do what seems right at the time. Gene.

Apparrently, you have misinterpreted my previous note.

Look, I'm not trying to create a back and forth..just logic. So you're hunting with a Remington 1100 automatic...you don't trust your safety so you ...what? Have the bolt open for a flush or you have it loaded on "safety" and then sort of dab and push for that little button? How about a Remington 870? You keep the chamber empty but the forearm at cock position, safety off, so big muscle memory operating the fore-arm can load the shell (this is what you do for polar bears in the Arctic by the way)? The argument seems pretty esoteric. Cock the hammers when you need to cock them.

I'm 6'2" but don't have big hands. I have three hammerguns. My method for cocking both at the same time is simple. When hunting flushing birds I carry the shotgun similarly to port-arms, muzzles up of course, hammer spurs pointed back towards my chest and with my thumb across both hammer spurs. All three of my guns have the hammers fairly closely spaced, not wide apart. When ready to cock, a simple leveraged movement done by pushing the forend hand away, while at the same time sweeping the right thumb back, cocks them both. Works for a Rem. 1889 12 ga., a San Georgio 12 ga., and a Manton percussion m/l 16 ga., and all part of the mounting move. When using them for doves or ducks they are fully cocked at all times while I'm on my stand, and I am still, not walking.

External hammers that are cocked are not AS "safe" as a gun with a hammer block safety, i.e. IMO they are more likely to discharge due to a fall, etc. .........but they're safe enough, in some conditions, to remain fully cocked. Horses for courses. No reason to try to apply either method to all conditions. Most boxlocks' and sidelocks' safeties don't block the hammers anyway, they just prevent movement of the triggers. In that regard there's no difference in the "safety factor" of a internal hammer gun and an external hammer gun. Either could possibly slip out of bent in a fall, according to the amount of sear engagement and the angles of them.

To each his own. If you want to walk around with cocked hammers, so be it.

I certainly would not feel safe hunting with someone with hammers cocked or safety off...

besides, as any cool grouse hunter knows,

if you do not have time to cock a hammer or slide a safety off,

then any shot you take is usually a hail Mary exercise in tree trimming...

This is my challenge...



I can bridge the Lang with my thumb. With practice, I might even get pretty good at it (maybe). The Elsie is a different story (as can be seen here) and my thumb is simply not long enough. This early Smith makes a fine target gun and would be dandy on waterfowl (and even over pointing dogs). Beyond that, however, it will tough to use it "safely" IMHO.

If I do happen to use it for upland work (which is a bit silly, it weighs almost 8-lbs) I'll likely only cock one hammer at a time.

Lloyd,
The bottom gun is easy like Stan or I described.

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/1062693379

wow and wow again...

Brent: Certainly "easier"...

Just take it with a positive attitude that is this not going to be that hard. Keep your muzzles up and cock early in the mounting sequence. It will go pretty easily.

Nice metal which certainly deserves better wood. I would not call that a best gun. The wood looks to be heavily restored (or newish) in addition to being rather plain.

Some of you have seen me post or heard me say that while hunting grouse or woodcock with my Parker hammer guns, I cock both hammers as I enter the covers but leave the action open until I walk in on Gracie's point or if not hunting with a dog I will close the gun on the flush as I raise the gun. It's pretty simple, a lot less cumbersome (I've tried cocking the gun on the flush and it just doesn't work for me) and quite effective... and quite safe as well.

I have tried walking around with an open breech. Never worked. Lost shells and sooner or later, I need to 1-hand the gun so I can push aside some brush, or catch my balance, or reach for a the Garmin, and that usually presents problems. But it works for some folks, obviously.