doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Holts- not that I really needed them

As a Southpaw I was tempted by the 28 bore Grulla sidelock (lot 1553) which seemed to have been built for me, but sanity prevailed and I did not bid for it. In the event the hammer price of £4,300 was almost 3 times top estimate.



I was however tempted to leave a “cheeky” mid-estimate (£150 to £250) on this Paton with its unusual combination of patents.



Hammer fell at £450, so to no avail apart from the thrill of the chase,

there's always that moment of exhilaration when you decide to place a bid - after having convinced ones self that the attempt is the right thing to do....and then that moment of disappointment when you watch the price sail past you.

but, i've found it's much worst to lose by a pittance, than a significant sum. (would have been an interesting gun...)

best regards,

tom

The exposed cocking levers leave me cold. A square frame Tobin is more than bad enough for a slog back to the truck.

Best,
Ted

Lot 1558 WW. Greener 20 bore. I think the estimate was 700-900. It sold for 5000. Most likely a custom order(?) but damn!

Didn’t bid this time. The best boxlock IMHO was Lot 1757. I would have bid but I already have a similar gun with the scrollback action. What a stunner!

Owenjj3;

What did lot 1757 (Pierce BLE) sell for?

Reilly 8 bore SxS shotgun under-lever hammer gun, SN 33457 (1892) sold for £2,500.
I would bet that gun winds up on this side of the Atlantic in 6 months.
https://www.holtsauctioneers.com/as...+++708+&refno=++158188&saletype=

Bushveld- 2100 sterling plus juice.

thanks

One bid more than a friend was willing to go.

Really nice and different gun, but the wood was considerably proud of the metal.

There were 2 similar guns and the one that you mention had the lower pre-sale estimate. Perhaps the bidder had held back on the first thinking he’d snap the second up cheaper and then found he had to fight for it.

Not surprisingly English .410 SXS made about 3 times top estimate.

What did lot no. 1705 (Wesley Richards 12 bore 30 damascus barreled BLE) bring in price? It is a beautiful gun of of late 1800s but with one barrel at .020" wall thickness which kept me from bidding.

Regards;
Stephen Howell

3,500

I wanted 1755.

Ksaurers1;

Thanks.

Here is what the magnificent Lot No. 1705 was:

https://www.holtsauctioneers.com/as...++1705+&refno=++215797&saletype=

Thanks for posting the catalogue entry for that lovely Westley Richards which I see made over 4 times top estimate despite a .020 MWT.

It is a pity that the Holts catalogue and results disappear (for those of us who do not subscribe to their archive service) so swiftly after sale closes.

As an owner of some British boxlocks, and someone who should probably not buy any more and certainly does not “need” to, I should be re-assured that the nicer examples are now selling at prices more commensurate with their quality if not the cost of building new examples.

However although they say “a rising tide lifts all boats” I suspect that the examples I have picked up for a song at Southams in the past will probably stay stuck in the muddy bottom.

Parabola;

I am pleased to find another person/shooter who understands what a best quality BLE looks like. The workmanship that went into this lot no. 1705 was equal to what would have been done on a best quality SLE. The damascus barrels pattern was superb. Whoever did the browning of those barrels is a master craftsman.

Nick Holt appears to be an astute salesman and he seems to know that very fine damascus barrels are now back in demand. I have been watching the results of his sales for years and each auction of his I pick out about 10 guns to watch the results---which helps me understand what the real market price of British guns are in the UK vs. the overpricing of them here in the USA. My picks for this 29July2024 auction were Lot Nos. 1705; 1757; 1376; 1381; 1104; 1108; 797; and 1850. If anyone has the realized pricing on the last 6 of these lots please post them---especially lot no. 797.

I was late in looking at the realized pricing of this July auction and was not able to record the prices of the guns I was tracking.

Nick seems to undervalue the auction estimate of certain guns to draw interest and this lot no. 1705 of the 29 July 2024 auction and lot no. 1752 of the 28 Nov 2023 are good examples of his under valuation strategy for damascus barreled shotguns. Here is a video of the lot no. 1752 of 28 Nov 2023 where Nick estimated the auction price range of £300-500 where the gun actually sold for £1600 plus commission.



Kind Regards;
Stephen Howell

Dear Stephen,

I think this one qualifies as a “Best” BLE.

Built by Edwinson Green in 1895 with intercepting sears, Whitworth chopper lump barrels for Tudor Crawshay (hence the Tudor Roses on the fences) it cost £35 plus 3 guineas extra for the Whitworth barrels at a time when £38.3s.0d would have bought a good quality sidelock.

Stephen,

I sent you a PM.

Ken

Yes, it is without a best quality BLE.

I would like to know the engraver. The fine English scroll is executed in the period style with both single and double cuts and done very well. The scroll work reminds me of the Churchill house style of the same time frame. The addition of the dogs and birds by the engraver surrounding by the fine English scroll is very unusual and I do not think I have ever seen this style before. The Tudor rose application on the fence balls is one that I have never before seen as well.

Are the barrel makers/filers initials stamped on the barrels? How long are the barrels and whose ejector works does the gun have?

Kind Regards;
Stephen Howell

I really don't follow the results of British Gun Auctions much, except for what I read here. We have seen that the hammer prices for British doubles have been generally depressed for years, and some here find relative bargains even when factoring in the high costs of auction and importation fees. And sometimes, we read that these guns sell for several times the pre-auction estimates, which may be a marketing ploy by the auctioneer to generate interest. So this leads me to ask if it is only the prices of double shotguns that have fallen in recent years, or if the current conditions have also led to depressed prices for other types of firearms? I ask this because we also read here that other guns such as pump shotguns often sell for near give-away prices... if they sell at all.

If that is indeed the case, it seems that the root cause may well be the anti-gun climate in Great Britain, and the highly restrictive gun laws that make gun ownership there much more cumbersome than here in the U.S.

That would also explain why these British doubles may seem overpriced here, when in reality, they are still bargains in terms of their average overall quality as compared to many vintage American doubles. Selling prices here are a function of what the market will bear, and it is undeniable that many of these fine quality guns sell for less than what their engraving alone would cost today. It appears to be a sad fact that the comparative Fire Sale prices in Great Britain has permitted many American double gun buyers the opportunity to purchase high quality British doubles at prices that they otherwise may not have found so affordable 25 or 30 years ago.

There have always been regional differences in demand and prices for many collectible items. But it's somewhat tragic to think that our gain has come at the expense of British gun owners who were driven out of their sport and gun owning passion by the same anti-gun forces that continue to threaten our 2nd Amendment Rights. That's something to think about in this election year. And I can only hope my post shows up sometime before Election Day.

One of the Holt's personnel explained that they set estimation of bid ranges low sometimes to encourage bidding, but also to give you some hope of finding a rare gem, at a good price. Sometimes a gun gets bid up multiples of the high estimation and sometimes not. When you win, with a bid in the estimate spread you feel you found your gem and when you watch one go for big money you think I recognized the gem, but would not meet the high price it realized. And sometimes the market just goes crazy. Like the gun I bid on that had a high estimation of 3,000 that went for 20,000+. One of the staff told me they were thunderstruck on that item. Both the seller and they thought it might go for 5-6,000. I dropped put at 14,000 which was really 5,000 above my pre-sale self imposed limit. In the four years since I have never seen another example of that gun and doubt there will be another as they claimed only three were ever made. Ah, the one who got away.

Quality always has a way of rising to the top and you can see that with boxlocks right now. Really good ones bring good money and decent ones can be bought for a good value price.

Stephen,

I too would love to identify the engraver. I have seen one other Green gun with almost identical engraving (but scalloped fences) that was sold at Bonhams many years ago. This one was built with 30 inch barrels and there are no makers initials on the Whitworth barrels.



They could very well have been sourced from Thomas Kilby whose name appears in Green’s records linked to other high quality guns.

The ejectors are Baker’s Patent.



Frustratingly the extraordinarily precise special order is silent as to the engraving.

Have considered putting In some bids on holts but have yet to do so. What happens with the unsold lots? Do they go into the next auction? Are they sold at a buy now price?

They are currently re-offered as Unsold Lots, that sale ending at the same time as the current sealed bids sale.

Parabola, that is a fine gun. I can see why it seems special to you. To have the paperwork makes it even more interesting. Fun to shoot, I am sure, but just fun to look at, too.

What did lot 1149 sell for?

Lot 1149 sold for £600.

The online catalogue with results is now showing under “previous sale results”.

I picked up lot #1106, a really interesting early Mauser sporter by Westley Richards, action dated 1898, the barrel has been lined and it appears to be a small ring intermediate length transitional action. This one will likely stay with me a while, I like it.

Thankyou!

Nice “get”, Steve. Thanks for posting the pics.
Caliber?

7x57

Daryl,

Thank you for your comment. Whilst the order details are a photocopy (courtesy of the gentleman who salvaged Green’s records when the shop closed) I am doubly (or trebly) fortunate in that the Crawshay family kept “ephemera” that many others would have discarded over the years.

Within the case:-



is the original receipt,



(C.F. for centre fire as late as 1895!)

A Lyon and Lyon 12 bore lethal bullet (extracted from a Bear in India)



Green’s bill in 1937 to Tudor’s eldest son Owen for lapping the bores (bear in mind British cartridges still had corrosive primers until the 1930’s or later).



and finally a note by Owen (then about 83) as to the gun being back with Green for nitro proof.

I’m interested in picking up vintage shotgun case from Holts. Anyone have an estimate what shipping to the US will cost? Thanks

A case shouldn’t involve the nausea of applying for import and export licences (assuming it is not elephant or crocodile hide).

They should be able to ship it direct to you.

Send them an email and they should give you a quote.

Holts has a shipper(or did); ask them. You’ll be looking at $120-150 for packing and shipping.

Ken

You can add shark to that list.

Best,
Ted

Are you guys able to see the winning bids for the Sealed Bid Auction? I’m logged in but the winning bids are not showing up.

Just checked and they are showing what was unsold but not yet the prices realised.

They were running their Charity Clay Shoot yesterday, that may have slowed up their admin.

Results and unsolds on offer are now showing.

For those like myself who have found themselves underbidders on almost everything they bid for you could still console yourselves with Lot 16754:-

ARMERIA IBANEZ 12-BORE 'CEBRA' BOXLOCK NON-EJECTOR, serial no. 21298, circa 1964, 28in. nitro barrels, 2 3/4in. chambers, bored approx. 1/2 and 3/4 choke, 14 1/2in. stock including buttplate

Yours for £1.30 (plus shipping)!

Parabola, that is indeed a fine buy. Beats my best, a high condition W C Scott muzzle loader for $33. The buyer’s premium minimum was $49, more than doubling the hammer price.

I’m not sure what I was thinking but I threw a bid on this AYA sidelock O/U with a centervision stock and won it. The problem is I shoot right handed and am right eyed dominant so this may turn into a conversation piece, or more likely a reminder not to drink and bid on guns. Any idea if AYA would sell a replacement stock for a reasonable price?

https://www.holtsauctioneers.com/asp/fullCatalogue.asp?salelot=S0824+++6443S&refno=++219080

Sure glad I didn’t do that:



Not going to bend your way out of that.

Good luck. Nice gun, if you can find somebody it fits.

Best,
Ted

That appears to be a true crossover gun rather than a central vision gun. What would be the selling price were you to take that route? I shoot crossover guns, but probably don't need another.

All my cross over doubles have bent tangs. I think that is a central vision for a fat faced man. I have both central and true cross overs and the cross overs have a lot more twist in the stock. I have central visions with the tangs not bent at all. Cross overs are always with bent metal and there is no realistic way to straighten the metal. And if you could you would still need to have it restocked. No way you could do that and not be so underwater you could ever recover more than half your investment.

It took me years to find a left shoulder, right eye cross over hun. Seems like they never reach the market or are outnumbered by fifty to one or greater. I suspect any dealer who comes across one has several people looking for them before they ever hit the shelf.

Without going back to look, isn’t this the gun Jonny featured in his last Holts walk-around?

For the above reasons, I wouldn’t put any money in the gun but instead knowing that there is someone out there looking for it I’d put my efforts in getting the two together. (And making him or her a very happy shooter.)