doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Big stars means two-bars?

Just a thought Doc Drew. Your four iron is captioned with "three full scrolls". Maybe, those are "crolles", or the three weld lines that connect four irons together? Steve C. describes the stars as the center of each "iron", four in that example. Eveything else(design features) is a weld, either between "irons" or "ribbands"?

Steve is unimpressed with my semantics Craig, but I got the term from Dr Gaddy and it does help my pea brain visualize what we're trying to describe. Yes, a 'scroll' is 1/2 of 2 rods with the 'zipper' weld between. But that only works for crolle patterns

This is Lutticher Corche, Remington “Ohonon 6 S.T.”, and ML Manufacture Extra - no scrolls, stars, zipper welds or straight ribband end welds



https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zMmG-80ZUWwiLDbjBNk-wiOdDxKrhQL6jMNs5L2XVfc/edit

Dr. Drew: What distinguishes between a "crolle" pattern and the other variants? Is it merely the absence of discernable weld lines?

Also, in the great Damascus barrel strength tests conducted in Britain in the early 1890s, were any of these truly-beautiful "variants" included in the program? The ones I seem to recall are the more-conventional ones I've already listed (3-bar, 2-bar, laminated, & twist).

Edit to add: There were several 4-bar tubes included in the 1891 tests (which also included fluid steel barrels). The top 10 performers included examples from the 5-types of Damascus identified here and of-course some early fluid steels (Whitworth's and Siemens-Martins).

Nice barrels Doc Drew, I see thirteen small irons forming each ribband? Those diagonal slashes that alternate direction, may be twist irons that are too small be ground to the internal star, with “Bernard” pattern irons in between? The ribbands appear to be welded at the double slashes, where there is higher distortion and the only place two similar irons touch? Take care, only guesses.

You have better eyes than me Craig.
We can't decipher patterns without first knowing how the 'lopin' was 'stacked', then machine rolled under high heat and pressure to form the rods
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1xylidcizmxlYC66XHUDLpQFtU6gi9WyXSkTayKKWCXc/edit

More interesting non-crolle patterns, possibly Damas Chine’



The only way to determine the ribband edge is where the 'scrolls' (sorry Steve ) are compressed as the edges are 'jumped'. In the middle of the upper tube there is a straight ribband edge weld down the middle of the squished scrolls (how's that for descriptive exactitude?).

Lloyd-the Birmingham Trial is here. Very few (obviously inferior ) "Foreign" tubes were included, by the British, surprise.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1cvqRzkg0wEjhAAcFWr8gFi7aPFRsSIJ_hahfDxmrNAU/edit

Crolle is old English. In Danish, krolle; Swedish, krulla; French, s'enrouler; German, rolle
“To form into coils or ringlets. Twist.”
“Crolle” was used in reference to damascus barrels in Liege and England by at least the 1880s.
The rods for all the patterns (but not Twist) were twisted, but Crolle patterns have a definable "scroll".

Hey Doc Drew, your top picture may be an example of what I commented about on the previous pattern picture. I see “slashes”, diagonal features for lack of a better word. But, there are a few areas that have been ground deeper, revealing the stars from twisting the iron.

I also see a weld, right in the middle? I’d guess more distortion at a weld, due to additional hammering. But, the edges of a ribband that get welded, also there is material loss in the form of slag being brushed and fluxed off. Lost material may be localized loss of the pattern, to greater or lesser extents, based on the skill of the barrel smith? I think good barrel smiths could also “see” the internal pattern that they wanted, and put it where the grinder could reveal it, while maintaining correct barrel dims? Only fun conversation and guessing.

They had to 'see' with their imagination. The rods and ribband in process had no discernable pattern.



I think it was magic

Drew;

See your Private Message.

Dr. Drew: Any idea of what these stampings might mean?



Looks like LL H on the top and maybe a B H on the bottom tube. I somehow find myself remembering a Loch-Laurent Hermoise?

E. Heuse-Lemoine perhaps?

We're guessing more than we know Lloyd, but DO know that Smith sourced Belgian "rough forged tubes" by Bauduin Doyen, Heuse-Riga Fils, Henri Heuse-Riga, George Laloux & Ernest Heuse-Lemoine, and those letters are not unusual. The letters are often partially removed with barrel finishing. Both barrels probably had 'BD' and 'H', and we don't know for sure who 'H' was.
There are a bunch of presumed importers marks also
https://docs.google.com/document/d/17ixogftgITEblNUWtmFBv96ZvgjK6eFell8GsAWd-KI/edit