doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Big stars means two-bars?

I have always struggled to distinguish between 2-bar and 3-bar Damascus on shotgun barrels. Twist is easy to identify for me and after a fashion, so is Laminated Steel. Where I was perplexed was on the 2 versus 3-bar stuff. Our own good Dr. Drew here has taken the time and trouble to finally educate me on the finer points of all that, so while I'm absconding with his handiwork, I did provide the original photography.



He describes the red notations as being "straight-edge" (riband-edge) welds and "zipper" welds and, in summary, the number of zipper-welds per section (between the the straight-edge welds) is how you determine the rod number for a Damascus pattern. I had always used the size of the "stars" in a pattern to help me distinguish the difference, but that can be misleading. Look for the "Zipper" welds and the light will go "on".

2-Bar Damascus will only have one zipper weld, 3-bar Damascus will have two.

The gun with the 2-Bar Damascus that provoked this enlightenment...



Smaller "stars" and a finer pattern were always another clue for me, as was the "grade" of a gun (more-expensive guns usually have the more-expensive 3-bar tubes).

Another 2 Iron, with smaller scrolls. The term 'scrolls' is from Dr Gaddy and wasn't used in period descriptions.



Another 2 Iron "Oxford"



It helps when the ribband edge scrolls are compressed when the edges are "jumped", with a 1/2 scroll at the edge and full scrolls between them - this is 4 Iron
'Leaves' are properly referred to as alternee - alternating thin strips of iron and steel 'stacked' to form the rod for crolle patterns; much more complicated for other patterns



The long version
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zMmG-80ZUWwiLDbjBNk-wiOdDxKrhQL6jMNs5L2XVfc/edit

Dr. Drew: Wow! That 4-iron tube is a mess to decipher, isn't it? But...when you look for the zipper welds and then find them, the number of irons becomes obvious. Some patterns are so-easy to see (that Scott example is spectacular!) and some likely won't be I suppose. Deep into the weeds here again (eh?), but truly-neat stuff all-the-same. At one time I thought that counting all the little lines in a section was useful but... that drove me mostly mad. Your system is much easier to pull-off.

So, do I have this right? In descending order of original cost :

3-bar
2-bar
laminated steel
twist (also called skelp)

With the laminated steel being arguably the "strongest version" (when related in burst strength)? Some later versions of laminated steel had almost 70% (of their iron/steel composition) being steel (also known as Greener's Silver Steel?).

This, of course, may be overly simplified.

It's complicated Lloyd
There are several price lists here
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1YJxP1k3PzmtmrG1HEGxd8X6g0-1GL0KNY8WMIMkdKr0/edit

In general, higher grade guns had higher priced pattern welded barrels.
And there were several grades of Laminated Steel.
Plain 'ol 2 Iron was #3 in the Birmingham Proof House Trial.

Great article Dr. Drew, thank you for that.

There are dangers in generalizing, I understand, but in the cross-section of guns I've examined (and then measured for MW Reynolds for 10-12 years), the Damascus guns that I've encountered usually fell within the parameters I loosely outline above. There will always be outliers and "oddball variants", to be sure, but the vast majority of English and then American guns seem to follow my rather simplified pattern. 4-bar guns were obviously made, but are not common because of the theory put forth early-on (in the 1880s) that "overworking" the metal weakened it. "Best" and better guns built at well-established companies normally fit within my rudimentary outline, at least for the "mainstream" makers of that time.

I find myself drawn-to (and even fascinated) by this material (and it's extensive history) and I'll likely continue to read on the matter. I'll even happily "fall on my sword" if I eventually come to another conclusion, but for now this is the paradigm that I've constructed to make sense of it all. Focusing on the outliers isn't helpful and actually seems to cause most of the confusion (& even misinformation) I tend to encounter on this subject.

Now, most of that "misinformation" seems to have originated from the American gunmakers of the 1920s, and it's surprising to see how effective it actually was in helping them sell guns, even in the depths of the Great Depression ("fear" is without-a-doubt the most powerful motivator and we're getting loads of it these days from the mainstream press, eh?). Moreover, even at this late date, Damascus gun barrels cause many otherwise-rational folks to completely shun the firearms that employ it (and for many years now, I've been happy to benefit from their ignorance of the subject).

The barrels on 88787 were referred to as Fine Damascus a description for ordinary lay man in catalogs and were not usually placed on lower graded guns. The same holds true for Chain Damascus on lower grade F hammer guns. In my records I have only 4 listed out of hundreds and am fortunate to own one. Whether a mix up at the factory or ordered that way who knows. When in the "white" they all look alike and possible put in the the wrong bin.

In the late 1890s the government had not yet assumed the responsibility of determining pattern welded pronouns so the makers and dealers could call barrels whatever they wanted; often chosen for marketing rather than descriptive exactitude. Even more so for the steel barrels.

This is a late 1890s Hibbard, Spencer, Bartlett & Co. catalog page. Plain ol' damascus to 'Finest'. Note Nitro steel (introduced in 1897 for the A-2, A-1, No. 3 and Pigeon and later the No. 4 and No. 5) is not listed.

Of the U.S. makers, Remington offered the greatest number of pattern variants
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1DaS94GLQ9b3w9XRU4cBX7M0LUIB_mTDFpvSZxCmUQME/edit

IMHO however Lefever wins the prize for creative and hyperbolic marketing

"Finest A1 Quality Silver Steel Damascus" - 4 Iron "Turkish" very similar to Parker D4 and Smith "Very Fine" Damascus
Lloyd - the ribband edge welds are quite apparent

IMHO as the doublegun makers were transitioning to the creatively names fluid steel tubes, they were likely using up their pattern welded stock without regard to grade of the gun

Hammer 1901 F grade with Birmingham Provisional Proof 4 Iron SN 89971



A 1902 Smith F grade hammergun with Rubans Royal



1896 Smith No. 1 hammerless with Birmingham Proof 4 Iron Turkish

Damascus "pronouns"....now that's funny! Cool stuff Dr. Drew.

Just a thought Doc Drew. Your four iron is captioned with "three full scrolls". Maybe, those are "crolles", or the three weld lines that connect four irons together? Steve C. describes the stars as the center of each "iron", four in that example. Eveything else(design features) is a weld, either between "irons" or "ribbands"?

Steve is unimpressed with my semantics Craig, but I got the term from Dr Gaddy and it does help my pea brain visualize what we're trying to describe. Yes, a 'scroll' is 1/2 of 2 rods with the 'zipper' weld between. But that only works for crolle patterns

This is Lutticher Corche, Remington “Ohonon 6 S.T.”, and ML Manufacture Extra - no scrolls, stars, zipper welds or straight ribband end welds



https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zMmG-80ZUWwiLDbjBNk-wiOdDxKrhQL6jMNs5L2XVfc/edit

Dr. Drew: What distinguishes between a "crolle" pattern and the other variants? Is it merely the absence of discernable weld lines?

Also, in the great Damascus barrel strength tests conducted in Britain in the early 1890s, were any of these truly-beautiful "variants" included in the program? The ones I seem to recall are the more-conventional ones I've already listed (3-bar, 2-bar, laminated, & twist).

Edit to add: There were several 4-bar tubes included in the 1891 tests (which also included fluid steel barrels). The top 10 performers included examples from the 5-types of Damascus identified here and of-course some early fluid steels (Whitworth's and Siemens-Martins).

Nice barrels Doc Drew, I see thirteen small irons forming each ribband? Those diagonal slashes that alternate direction, may be twist irons that are too small be ground to the internal star, with “Bernard” pattern irons in between? The ribbands appear to be welded at the double slashes, where there is higher distortion and the only place two similar irons touch? Take care, only guesses.

You have better eyes than me Craig.
We can't decipher patterns without first knowing how the 'lopin' was 'stacked', then machine rolled under high heat and pressure to form the rods
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1xylidcizmxlYC66XHUDLpQFtU6gi9WyXSkTayKKWCXc/edit

More interesting non-crolle patterns, possibly Damas Chine’



The only way to determine the ribband edge is where the 'scrolls' (sorry Steve ) are compressed as the edges are 'jumped'. In the middle of the upper tube there is a straight ribband edge weld down the middle of the squished scrolls (how's that for descriptive exactitude?).

Lloyd-the Birmingham Trial is here. Very few (obviously inferior ) "Foreign" tubes were included, by the British, surprise.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1cvqRzkg0wEjhAAcFWr8gFi7aPFRsSIJ_hahfDxmrNAU/edit

Crolle is old English. In Danish, krolle; Swedish, krulla; French, s'enrouler; German, rolle
“To form into coils or ringlets. Twist.”
“Crolle” was used in reference to damascus barrels in Liege and England by at least the 1880s.
The rods for all the patterns (but not Twist) were twisted, but Crolle patterns have a definable "scroll".

Hey Doc Drew, your top picture may be an example of what I commented about on the previous pattern picture. I see “slashes”, diagonal features for lack of a better word. But, there are a few areas that have been ground deeper, revealing the stars from twisting the iron.

I also see a weld, right in the middle? I’d guess more distortion at a weld, due to additional hammering. But, the edges of a ribband that get welded, also there is material loss in the form of slag being brushed and fluxed off. Lost material may be localized loss of the pattern, to greater or lesser extents, based on the skill of the barrel smith? I think good barrel smiths could also “see” the internal pattern that they wanted, and put it where the grinder could reveal it, while maintaining correct barrel dims? Only fun conversation and guessing.

They had to 'see' with their imagination. The rods and ribband in process had no discernable pattern.



I think it was magic

Drew;

See your Private Message.

Dr. Drew: Any idea of what these stampings might mean?



Looks like LL H on the top and maybe a B H on the bottom tube. I somehow find myself remembering a Loch-Laurent Hermoise?

E. Heuse-Lemoine perhaps?

We're guessing more than we know Lloyd, but DO know that Smith sourced Belgian "rough forged tubes" by Bauduin Doyen, Heuse-Riga Fils, Henri Heuse-Riga, George Laloux & Ernest Heuse-Lemoine, and those letters are not unusual. The letters are often partially removed with barrel finishing. Both barrels probably had 'BD' and 'H', and we don't know for sure who 'H' was.
There are a bunch of presumed importers marks also
https://docs.google.com/document/d/17ixogftgITEblNUWtmFBv96ZvgjK6eFell8GsAWd-KI/edit

I'm probably conflating Ernest Heuse-Lemoine and Heuse-Riga Fils. Appreciate that Dr. Drew.