doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion German & Austrian Sporting Guns @ doublegunshop.com Vereinsbüchsenmacher Franz Denk Wein-Prater

Any Franz Denk in Wien fans?? I know there are 2 or 3 threads around here where he retailed longarms made in Auustria & Suhl, Germany. It may take me some time to tell his tale, but indeed it is an interesting one and he even rented weapons for you to shoot @ the kaiserlich-königlich(k.k.) Garnisonsschiessstätte im Prater Scheibengattungen. Now I am not positive on exactly where he was driving the bus of the Vienna Rifle Club(Öesterreichischen Omnibus Gesellschaft) to which shooting grounds but it was either the Prater Amusement Park on the West side of the Danube or the Schießplatz Kagran / „k. k. Garnisonsschießplatz“ Kagran(Militär-Schießstätte)on the East side of the Danube about 18 km from Ecke der Nordbahnstrasse or the corner of Nordbahn Street / Praterstern, which I assume was a Rail Stop. He would get you back to the same spot by dinnertime. The Kagran shooting grounds was originally just for the Military in 1871 but at some point the Vienna Shooting Club rented a portion of it & that where they had the „Berlin“, „Frankfurt“ & „Heimat“ stands. Also there were several target pistol ranges where the distances were of course in paces. Always remember in the Austro-Hungarian Empire, the distances are paces not metres.

Franz Denk bürgerlichen Büchsenmacher in Wien advertised as Vereinsbüchsenmacher Franz Denk des Wiener Schützenvereines - k k Garnisonsschiessstätte im Prater Scheibengattungen(or some variant thereof) or Club Gunsmith of the of the Viennese Shooters Club where he offered his services to the Premisso Titulo Shooters and Guest his well regulated shotguns, target rifles or breech-loading pistols, which all could be purchased or rented. He was a specialist in scatterguns and very accurate breech-loading target pistols to 200, 300 paces.... Whatever was there. He had a very interesting business modell which I hope to fully comprehend.

Vereinsbüchsenmacher Franz Denk was too an accomplished shooter in his own right with awards of trophies & coins? Not sure of when he was born or died, but he appears in the mid 1880s and then fades into the sunset by the mid 1930s where he was awarded the Austrian Title of Kommerzialrar or deserving entrepreneurs. As I understand it, an Austrian really did fancy a title, much like the Brits. But one title that he acquired was one of the very last, if not the last Büchsenmachers to have been dubbed k.u.k.(kaiserlich-königlich) Hofbüchsenmacher as Franz Denk bürgerlichen Büchsenmacher in Wien received his in January 1918 and the Austro-Hungarian Empire fell apart in November 1918.

He seemed to have a close working relationship with Kalezky, Springer and possibly another or 2 Gunsmiths in Vienna. He may have had the same arrangement as Kalezky & Springer had in that each didn't siphon off adept mechanics from the other. Although I am not sure how many, if any, that bürgerlichen Büchsenmacher Franz Denk. With driving the shooting grounds bus he had to have some help???

If anyone has an offering by Vereinsbüchsenmacher Franz Denk, I for one would very much like to see it. Of course there is always more to the story...


Oh, oh, oh bürgerlichen Büchsenmacher Franz Denk, much like Charles Daly, did donate items for prizes for the top shooters. So this modell may have been typical for the time or one got the idea from the other??

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

https://www.doublegunshop.com/forum...mp;Words=denk&Search=true#Post207406


https://www.doublegunshop.com/forum...mp;Words=denk&Search=true#Post232324


https://www.doublegunshop.com/forum...mp;Words=denk&Search=true#Post457860

A few Franz Denk in Wien offerings.....

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

>>Sonntag ,den 20. und Sonntag den 27. December 1896, aufder k.k. Garnisonsschiessstätte im Prater veranstaltet.

Auf die Distanz von 150 Schritten gelangen folgende Scheiben gattungen zur Aufstellung, und zwar: Hasen Punktscheibe, Elefanten scheibe und Meisterscheibe. Die Scheiben sind mit circa 200 Kronen Beste nebst Gläseranweisungen dotirt und können sich die Premisso Titulo Herren Schützen auch Hasen für den Weihnachts- und Neujahrstisch erschiessen. Die Pistolenscheibe, Distanz 50 Schritte, ist mit 56 Kronen Beste nebst Gläseranweisungen dotirt und ist es ausserdem den Premisso Titulo Herren Schützen möglich ge macht die in der Schiesshalle bereitliegende „Kronewurst“ zu stutzen.....<<

A shoot at the „k. k. Garnisonsschießplatz“ or Vienna Hunt Club @ Christmas 1896, where you have 3 target choices of Rabbit, Elephant & „Meisterscheibe“ at 150 steps(remember again in the Austro-Hungarian Empire the distances to targets & gun sights are in >>Schritten<< / steps and not metres) & the Best Shooter can be awarded around 200 Kroner. There's some type of instructions I do not comprehend(Gläseranweisungen). I would very much like to see the Elephant targets.....

The Premisso Titulo Gentlemen can have a go @ Rabbits for either the Christmas or New Years Dinner Table.

Pistol targets are @ 50 paces & the winning shooter can net around 56 Kroner.

Now those Premisso Titulo Kats get the Royal Treatment & get to carve on some „Kronewurst“ in the >>Schiesshalle<< and I assume that is some hanging Summer Sausage in the Festhall/Shooting Hall?

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

1897 Advert albeit a bit blurry/fuzzy. Now from the Mid to Late 1890s, bürgerlichen Büchsenmacher Franz Denk did some heavy advertising. He was among the likes of Alfred Fanzoi, Leopold Gasser, Gewehrfabrik v. H. Burgmüller, Markus Orgus, Johann Peterlongo, Carl Stiegele, Jr., Josef Winkler, etc.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

One think I forgot to mention about the Vienna Military shooting Grounds( Schießplatz Kagran) was that the Klosterneuburg Abbey(Stift Klosterneuburg) gave up some property for the construction. The Vienna Shooting Club in 1872 originally leased a subset of the Military Range and competitions were on Sunday.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Can you actually believe in 1895 that the Vienna Animal Rights Group(der Wiener Thierschutzverein seine ) was giving Vereinsbüchsenmacher Franz Denk and his Bosniaks(Bosniaken) Buds static of Pigeon Shooting.....

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Still holding with the Vienna Shooting Club Times(in say May 1895 they took over publication of the text), they inform young shooters how to address spent cases to extend their life. The very 1st & what they consider very important is to pull the primer immediately upon firing. Wouldn't you like to be in that band of merry fellas shooting Doves or Ducks and having to extract the primer on each spent hull????? Of course they are talking about metallic cartridges I think. But then let the spent case rest for 2 - 3 hours and then put it in a wood vessel or earthen vessel with Lukewarm water(one artikel noted to use Baking Soda I believe it was and for sure they didn't have >>Oxi Clean<< back then. Then take the wing feather of a Goose and clean the inside of the spent case. They warn that if the spent cases are not cleaned that you will only get 30-40 shots of use of the cases. Too, they were dead set against what they referred to as polishing in an earthen vessel. They give that cleaning & not polishing results in 100+ shot use. Interesting that between the two artikels that one says to use a wooden dowel to clean then inside and the other warns against such use and gives the Goose Feather is the key.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,
Back at the top, I don't think "Omnibus" has anything to do with driving a bus, the word means "over all", "universal", or "all knowing". Back at the bottom, even today blackpowder shooters put their cases in a cleaning solution right away, and they don't have to contend with brass destroying mercuric primers like they did in the old days. Different advice on cleaning is common even today (the more things change, the more they stay the same). "Schritten" does mean steps, but we would more than likely translate it to "paces". BTW, good show on your translations.
Mike

Yeah Ford, Öesterreichischen Omnibus Gesellschaft was or is the bus service but I was just rounding out the story of Vereinsbüchsenmacher Franz Denk and used an artistic license to stretch the truth just a bit as he didn't drive the Bus I do not think.

I did have some help on the Austrian German...

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Paces Ford, Paces is the correct term...... Yes. I did read about a few shoots where say 200 or 230 Paces was 175 metres. I can dig those up, maybe....

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Yeah, I found a couple equations right off....

114 Metres = 150 Schritte(Paces)

175 Metres = 230 Schritte(Paces)


300 Metres = 400 Schritte(Paces)


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Extreme Distance Austrian Pistol Shooter Joseph Schulhof & writers @ the time(1890s) credit Vereinsbüchsenmacher Franz Denk along with Büchsenmachers Dörfler, Kretschmer, Postler &
Wurzinger in breaking the old stigma that Sporting Pistols are only for 25-30 paces. With a Mauser Pistol Joseph Schulhof was adept to distances out to 600 paces and was quite accurate @ 400 paces. That's the reason that Vereinsbüchsenmacher Franz Denk time & time again advertises as a Specialist for Pistols @ 200 paces to 300 paces. Again, I am not sure of just how many mechanics Vereinsbüchsenmacher Franz Denk had under his umbrella, but has the go-to for Extreme Distance Sporting Weapons. As always, every word in an advert has a specific reason and must be scrutinized.

This realization brings on another task of tracking down Büchsenmachers Dörfler, Kretschmer, Postler &
Wurzinger.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Many thanks to Jani on his memory of the Schulhof Single Shot Sporting Pistol:





https://classictargetpistols.com/index.php/schulhof/


>>Maker: Schulhof (AUT)
Model: Scheibenpistole
Caliber: 7x36R CF
Barrel length: 250mm
Weight: 1010g
Source: Czerny’s auction (internet)

This magnificent target pistol was designed by Joseph Schulhof (a.k.a. Schulhoff) from Vienna, Austria. He was lesser known for the development of his semiautomatic pistols, but was in fact a weapons builder and good pistol shot in his time.

In 1880 he developed this famous target pistol, but it was built by several other major firms who all made small changes to the pistol, like Meffert in (Suhl), Wurzinger (Vienna), Nowatny (Prague) and Postler (Vienna). The pistol has a radial-block system which rotates backwards when the large loading lever (positioned in the grips) is pulled upwards. This also cocks the external hammer. It features a double-set trigger and very ornately engraved lock and fixtures. All of the rosewood is finely checkered and has a thumb rest on the right hand side of the pistol. The barrel is fluted and has Swiss-type rear sight and a ramped front sight, which is interchangeable. At the muzzle of the barrel is a small silver inlay used for decoration.<<

Büchsenmachers Vereinsbüchsenmacher Franz Denk, Dörfler, Kretschmer in addition to Postler & Wurzinger too were instrumental.


I think Schulhof shot a 1877 Mauser @ 1st but I will have to check.



Serbus,

Here's the other version:

https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/82/1590/schulhof-model-1887-repeating-pistol-with-case


>>Very Rare Schulhof Model 1887 Manual Repeating Pistol
Manufacturer: European
Model: Repeating Pistol
Type: Pistol
Gauge: 8 mm
Barrel: 5 1/4 inch octagon
Finish: nickel
Grip: walnut
Stock:
Item Views: 2303
Item Interest: Active
Serial Number:
Catalog Page: 394
Class: Antique
Description:
Active in Vienna starting in 1870, Josef Schulhof patented two repeating firearms in the 1880s, a rifle and a pistol. Both were made in limited quantities; Hogg's Illustrated Encyclopedia of Firearms notes the highest recorded serial number for a Schulhof Pistol as 36. Broad variations have been observed in known Schulhofs, with changes in magazine configuration and overall form. This one, serial number 18, features a rotary style magazine reminiscent of a Mannlicher ahead of the grip, with a bag-shaped grip profile. A set of post front and notch rear sights are dovetailed into the barrel and receiver, the latter engraved "SCHULHOF'S PATENT WIEN" on the upper left and "18" on the backstrap. The bolt uses a rotary locking mechanism, with on-board extractor claw and a pair of frame-mounted locking lugs that double as fixed ejectors. The bolt in turn is operated with a ring lever, which is checkered sharply across the front and slotted at the rear to accept a trigger bar, which in turn is fitted with a manual safety lever. Pushing the ring forward retracts the bolt, and drawing it back closes the bolt for firing. With this setup, the user can make slow, deliberate single action shots by pulling back the ring by the front checkering, or perform quick double action fire by keeping their finger inside the ring to strike the trigger immediately on closure. While similar trigger actions have been seen on some revolver models of the era, the fact that the Schulhof doesn't need to manually move and index a cylinder allows for an uncommon lightness and smoothness of action, while the overall shaping gives an ergonomic experience more in line with a well made single shot pistol. Includes a custom made Huey display case. Provenance: The Clive Cussler Collection<<

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Anyone care to replicate shooting @ 600 paces??? I'll drive the Bus to the Shooting Range....

Serbus,


Raimey
rse

"Paces" are different lengths for different people, In Ranger School we had to calculate the length of our "Pace" by stepping off a known distance. My pre-cripple pace was 2 1/2 ', now it is more like 1'.
Mike

I wonder if he had to take the "guff" Elmer Keith did.
Mike

True Ford and no different that the >>Foot<< until it was standardized. Now National Geodetic Survey(NGS) has abandoned the US Survey Foot and gone to metres but they do acknowledge the International Foot.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

And my point is if the sights on Austro-Hungarian / Bohemian wares are to >>Paces<<, then that aspect needs to be considered.


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Great read Raimey, thank you for the information as you promised.

Alright Ford(Doubting Thomas), here is a direct quote on the Bus Stop info...., OmniBuse..



>>Die Omnibuse welche am Praterstern (Ecke der Nord bahnstrasse) aufgestellt sind, ver kehren an jedem Schiesstage. Ab fahrt vom Praterstern um 8 Uhr Früh und Abends zurück .<<

Every shooting Day was typically Sunday & most of the time the last last call was @ 7 pm.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Maybe someone other than you or I and knowledgeable in German will translate it. BTW I never balked at the sights being regulated to "paces". Russian sights were similar.
Mike

I was trying to run down the pool of possible engravers and Mr. Neuberger gives that JSE used engravers Doris Seidler, who was the wife of an JSE employee, Matzinger, Winkler and any contract engraver in Ferlach.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse