doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Light 12 or 2-inch 12?

I would suspect that both would be doing essentially the same job, but what differentiates them, about half a pound? I would assume that the patterns are comparable. The Skimin & Wood guns are certainly unique (to period and type) but what do they really offer over a 5 3/4 LB 2 1/2-inch 12-bore gun? As much as they intrigue me, I suppose that I'll finally have to give one a try some day to answer that one for myself.

The 2" is about 3/4 lb lighter (5.25, vs 6.0 lb). But the heavier gun is MUCH more flexible with respect to loads and thus hunting opportunities.

Fair enough, and while one reads about sub-6lb 12s, they are seldom encountered in real life. We had a Lincoln Jeffries BLE come through the shop several years ago that was that light, and while you do hear about the occasional Charles Daily lightweight, I've never personally held one.

6# 12s aren't too hard to find but below 6# it gets tougher unless it's a 2". At least, that's my experience. I saw a 5# 11 oz 2.75" english gun somewhere recently, but I can't remember where.

Lloyd,

A sub 6 lb 2.5” 12 would be a nice find. Easier to find shells than a 2” gun. This is from the RST site:

“Please only order if you have a 2" chambered gun. We load these shells for that market. Once these shells are out we may never be able load them again. Please be considerate to your fellow gun member.”

Brent,

I sure hope you and Gil get the 2” handloads worked out.

Ken

Lloyd,

I would choose a light 2 1/2” gun every time over a 2 inch gun. You can get 21 gram, 24 gram , 7/8 oz. Or 1 oz. loads, fibre or plastic and at a push you can rattle your teeth with 1 1/8 oz. if you can’t get anything else.

Not that I would turn down that 2” H.& H. Royal self-opener I saw advertised if someone offered to throw it in with a couple of slabs of 2” cartridges.

Yes, as I said, the heavier, longer chambered gun is more flexible. But it will be heavier, which is really the point of a 2x12. Besides that, why not have something a little more unique, a little more quirky, an little more interesting?

As far as I'm concerned, shell availability is a nonissue. If you are going to mess with vintage guns of any chamber length, reloading your own is really the best way to go by far. Even 2.75" shells in the pressures, payload, and shot size you need are often hard to impossible to find for a vintage gun. Makes no sense to worry about store-bought shells. Just make your own and be done with it. Reloading has its own rewards.

Of course, I am more than happy to take any H$H Royal, fs someone is offering to give it to me, shells or no shells. I'll take a 2" Skimin and Wood the same way, but that is a facetious argument.

Parabola: I just finished reading the 2-inch gun posting here (all 24 pages of it). I'm weaning off of the oxycontin here today (post surgery, don't want to end-up like Limbaugh) and need to keep myself occupied. Two-inch 12-gauge guns exist in a twilight of-sorts for me. We sold many of them over the years I worked for Mark Reynolds (Skimin & Woods, H&H Dominions, Purdeys, etc.) and I was simply fascinated by them all (I still am). That 2-inch post does what we do best here, which is to research and collaborate on obscure and highly-specialized fine guns. The gifts that are brought to bear on these pages here are almost other-worldly (in that they are shared freely and openly and with such enthusiasm!). I am in awe of what I read here. Years ago, I had to choose between either a good British 16 or a 2-inch 12. Being limited by reality (and possessing a practical nature by necessity), I went with the 16. I have no regrets, other than to still be fascinated by the concept.

Oh we have. Quite a few grouse suffered the consequences of it too. Another friend with a 2" has his own recipe and we have another from a third source as well. So we can build loads with American Select, Perfect Pattern, and 700-X that will all work in the 2" guns very well. They are actually fun to load, so that's a bonus. I've worked up a spreadsheet of the loads and others (that failed for whatever reason). Anyone with a 2" is certainly welcome to a copy.

Amended to add, I have a tested load for SR 7625 as well, if anyone has some of that wonder-powder squirreled away. I have a few pounds that I'm reserving for the 2x12 exclusively. I'd love to find some more.

Lloyd,
I’m pretty sure that as you sober up, the 2 1/2” 16 gauge will come to make far more practical sense than the 2” 12. The best part is you already own it. Guys quibbling over a half to three quarters of a pound on a hunting gun they use for a few months a year is ‘kinda funny in its own right, too.

Really? Didn’t eat your Wheaties today?

Many years ago, none other than Kirk Merrington told me Americans with a reloading press and an old English shotgun were a huge part of his success here in the states. Yes, we will get the guys here that say “never in 50 years have I done that”, but, you don’t have to look too far on the internet that Al Gore JR. invented to find sad stories of guys that have done just that.

Don’t be that guy.

Sounds like progress on that leg, to me. Looking forward to a few more LOWs experiences, do what the therapist tells you to do. That little restaurant in Roosevelt is calling our names.

Best,
Ted

Leave it to Ted to be the wet dish rag on anything I might find interesting.

Get what you want Lloyd. You seem to like things that are bit off the beaten track. If a 2x12 fits your boat, don't let Ted rain on your parade. After all, it will be you using it, not Ted.

After all of this navel-gazing, I'll likely have to try a 2-inch gun someday. The concept is just too-intriguing for me to ignore it forever. The one thing that might hold me at bay a little longer is the lack of longer barrels in these guns. To me, 28-inches would be perfection but you almost never see that length available. I've nothing against 26-inch guns except that I stuggle a bit with them (I do like to be able to hit things).

If you find a nice one, jump on it, and we can help you come up with a load for it very easily. There is no reason to let ammo issues make you hesitate.

Lloyd,

To help you quest there is a 28” two inch gun on GI. A little high but in nice condition.

28 two

Ken

That's a beauty.

I owned a 2" 12 gauge for one season. I bought factory ammo, did some handloading and had a fine time until the novelty wore off. Even thought they are light weight, they are still as fat at the breech end as most 12 gauge guns. I just prefer smaller guns, starting with 16s. I had a ball in 2022 with a 28 gauge and I didn't feel handicapped with it on pheasant. This season (2023-24) I'm back to my 20 gauge until a Rizzini 16 gauge I ordered is delivered.

Hope you got the Rizzini with 2 3/4” chambers….

Best,
Ted

Across the breeches

Greener FP 2.376"
Cashmore Paragon 2.276"
Merkel 8 2.269"
Skimin and Wood 2.168"

This a comparison between two H&H Royal actions. The 2” twelve is a smaller action action than the sixteen.

H&H Actions

12 gauge 2” built 1936

Water Table (WT) length 1.7615”
WT height 0.7820”
WT width 1.5390”
Action (knuckle to end of lock) 5.3425”
Height to fence from lock bottom 1.8675”
Firing pin distance 1.0290”


16 gauge 2 1/2” built 1910

WT length 1.9335”
WT height 0.8185”
WT width 1.7250””
Action (knuckle to end of lock) 5.4815”
Height to fence from lock bottom 1.9045”
Firing pin distance 0.9755”

Ken

S&W for comparison

WT Length 1.634"
WT Height 0.928"
WT Width 1.454"
Action 3.062"
Firing pin separation 1.062"

I know I would love to see pictures of your 2" gun. I've only seen pictures of one other. I would wager that very few have seen any such pictures.

How much does your 2" weigh?

This isn’t the greatest picture, but I do use it for KS pheasants. It weighs 5 lbs 8 3/4 ozs. It has 27” barrels and matches the record; most of the H&H 2” guns had 28”.



This is a picture of the 2” twelve compared to the sixteen. The 2” gun is on top.



Ken

Incredibly nice guns, both of them.

I'm not quite bold enough to use mine for pheasants.

There are some really nice guns coming out of the woodwork here now. You know they exist but you seldom see them. That MacPherson 2-inch has likely crossed my path earlier. I believe it came through our shop about 10-years ago, or so, and I got to fondle it properly while I measured it for listing and... it is/was pretty exceptional (it has to be that gun, how many MacPherson 2-inch guns are floating around that look like that?). It did cause a minor stir though, because it measured under 20 thousand in a couple of places, causing Mark to have second thoughts. I'm not sure what the resolution of all that was. We were pretty set on a 20k minimum in those days, for any gun. Since that time I've come to understand that many 2-inch guns were made with deliberately thin tubes and that some were as thin as 14k. I have even seen guns passing proof for a Holt's auction with 18k tubes ( a while back now). The bedrock of the issue for me is that you don't hear about any 2-inch guns bursting (at least I haven't yet, although that 2-inch gun with the chambers extended [that was mentioned here earlier by Brent] would seem to be a good candidate).

Also, as far as big tubes on small frames looking unattractive, that has not been my experience either. I find them strangely alluring actually.

Does anyone know the whereabouts of 2" H & H serisl no. 34052 ?

I do like your 16 bore, a good deal on that one I think.

"I find them strangely alluring actually."

sorta like large breast on skinny birds?

The short answer is no, but I think I saw an H&H on Westley Richards' website and maybe another on Dismal River, both during the middle of last year at some point.

WR site still shows a single H&H Royal and a pair of Royal 2” guns. They’ve been there a long time.

https://www.westleyrichards.com/usedguns/view/shotguns/1686076436-holland-12g-twelve-two-/

https://www.westleyrichards.com/usedguns/view/shotguns/1659553857-holland-12-ga-2-inch-/


Ken

They are beautiful guns, but at those prices, I suspect they will have them for a while longer yet. The first one is a bit chubby, but I'd not throw it out of bed.

Holt’s sold a pair for £15k plus fees in March 2018. https://www.holtsauctioneers.com/as...+1300+&refno=++123856&saletype=. Someone bought them in Dec 2017 and resold them at the next auction..

Ken

Holt’s also sold a single for £8k plus fees in September 2021. https://www.holtsauctioneers.com/as...++1473+&refno=++169695&saletype=

Ken

Thank you for the replies.