doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com color change

Bought a nice LC about 10 years ago with the receiver in the white...partial renovation. Sent it to my gunsmith to be charcoal case colored. Came back perfect. Put it in a sock and stored it away. Took it out several times over the course of 5 years and then left it alone. Recently, I pulled it out again and all the color has gone black on it. You can still see some color on it but basically it looks like it was re blued. My gunsmith uses Galazan lacquer and he has never heard of this happening...have any of you?

You stored it in a sock? A gun case? Has it been in that for five years?

It was in a clean sock for actually 10 years. It's a 10 ga, Trap Grade LC...quite rare....but now black.

Carl, Try running it through a sonic cleaner.
Mike

Ultrasonic cleaner? What do you think that will do, it's super clean now. Is it that you think the lacquer will be cleaned off and return the case color?

Carl, You didn't mention it having Galazan lacquer on it in your first few sentences, then say your gunsmith uses Galazan lacquer. Regardless, no one here can determine why your case-colored receiver is now black. My only guess is oxidation in a questionable environment. Photos would be a great help.
JR

Do as Mike states. You might me amazed at the results.

John, Ghost Rider, I will try as you suggest.
Please clarify something for me, if there is oxidation, isn't it visible? I don't dispute that my storage of the gun may have created issues, but if the gun looks pristine, can there still be oxidation?

Well, you have said that it no longer looks "pristine", so something is going on, oxidation or something else.

Take a small part off of the gun that is CCH and has turned black.
A couple screws, or the forend latch plate if it has one.

Try cleaning just these small part(s) with something like acetone and see if the black disappears and the Colors re-appear underneath.

Acetone shouldn't harm any real case hardening colors.
It will cut through any lacquer or most any clear coat finish applied over it.
Maybe just that clear coat has turned color for some reason.

This will let you find out w/o disassembling the entire gun or having to take it/send it somewhere to have someone do a super-sonic cleaning.

There was an older discussion about sonic cleaners and several mentioned that they brighten the colors on CCH actions. My intent was to try the least destructive methods first.
Mike

I think Kutter has a great idea. Acetone will not harm CC in the slightest. Neither will a sonic cleaner, unless there is some flakiness to the colors. I've seen that on one Helm's spur lever I had cased.

I think it must be the lacquer because case colors should never turn black by themselves.

I have seen a '50's vintage J. P. Sauer on which the lacquers were flaking and the case colors were coming off with the flakes. You could peel pieces off with your fingernail. What was left underneath was a dull French grey.
JR

Thanks, I'm heading over to HD for a fresh can of acetone as mine is old and dirty. I can't see where I said the finish was NOT pristine, it is in fact, pristine.I don't know how to download pics on this site but would be happy to send some to someone that can post them for me?

I PM'd you this reply back in July because you posted the question in the FAQ section, where I couldn't respond.


At the time, I didn't know that the frame had been coated with a lacquer. So it seems unlikely that the case hardening colors became oxidized. Knowing that now, I think I'd start by stripping the protective coat off, and hope it was the lacquer that discolored for some reason. In any event, an ultrasonic cleaning isn't going to touch the case hardened surface until the lacquer is removed.

There has always been some question on whether or not to store a gun in a sock or a carrying case. I have heard of some people having a shotgun in a sock for only a week or so and it rusted. I have always been leery about storing a gun in a sock for any length of time, although a lot of people do it. You never can tell what kind of chemicals are in that sock. I am not trying to run anyone down or anything, but I always check my guns- pretty much weekly, or after a couple weeks, to see that they are doing all right. To leave a gun in a safe for any length of time without checking it would really scare me. I can show you two of my handguns that have rusted after only two or three weeks in my gun safe because I did not check it. But good luck trying to repair your gun.

That is actually the lacquer or varnish that the colors were coated with, coming off and taking the thin layer of color oxides off with it. Seen it a few times myself.

I shot a few case colored guns with the baking lacquer that Brownell’s used to sell. It was a coating that was impervious to acetone, or lacquer thinner, once it was baked on the gun. However, regular old Berryman dip type carb cleaner removed it handily, and absolutely didn’t disturb the case colors underneath. It doesn’t hurt bone pack case colors, or cyanide colors, I’ve used it on both. I wouldn’t soak anything overnight in the stuff, but, it might get you out of a jam if you have a synthetic clear finish that was applied and has changed color over your re-done case colors.

The stuff is nasty, don’t get it on yourself.

Best,
Ted

You can email ‘em to me, I’ll get them up for you. Email is in my profile.

Best,
Ted

I've seen unlaquered colors flake as well.

Carl’s LC.






Damn-looks hot blued from here. Never seen anything quite like that.

Best,
Ted

Black oxide.
JR

My Vintage gun

"We posted five doughty men with shotguns to ensure no one would play the marsh piano that night, your honor."

“Could one of you ‘fellers help me get this 2X4 out of my eye?

Best,
Ted

It's late, so I will try in the morning with the acetone. If you look at the hinge pin area in both pictures you can see remains of color pattern. Sure hope the acetone brings it back. If it does I will send new pics to Ted for reposting...if you don't mind Ted?
Thanks,
Carl

No problem, Carl. Good luck.

Best,
Ted

Well, the results are in...it was the lacquer, the color is back. Before I send Ted updated pics, I'm gonna do a thorough cleaning.
Carl

I would advise caution and patience. The solvent used to remove the lacquer would likely also damage your stock finish. And removing the stock from an L. C. Smith is far from the easiest home gun repair job you might attempt.

Actually, taking them apart isn't all that hard, assuming you have the correct hollow ground screwdrivers to do it without really screwing up the screw slots and surrounding metal.. Getting them reassembled is the hardest part. If you dislike darkened lacquer, you will really hate buggered screws, scratches, or stripped threads, etc. while fighting the top lever spring. Do a little research on that before you decide to jump in.

My opinion is, screw the lacquer. I don't use it on my guns with case color remaining and don't intend to. Keep a light coating of oil on them and keep it them in the dark.

Congratulations, Carl. Glad you had a successful outcome.

A long time ago, maybe ten years, I threw a bid on a 16 gauge Lefever Nitro Special, that was listed on gunbroker, with poor photos that showed barrels with furry rust on them. I regretted doing so almost immediately, but, consoled myself with the fact it was the first bid, and probably wouldn’t be the last.

I was wrong. I ended up winning the gun, a late production 2 3/4” with 26” tubes choked cylinder and mod, for $257. 6lbs, 2 ozs, for those silly enough to ponder such things, on a $250 gun.

When it got here, I was stunned. Yes, the barrels had some rust, but I turned those over to Ken61, a poster I haven’t seen in a while, and they looked like new when he was done. I had to tell him not to go finer than 320 grit, he thought they were nice enough to go London best, which, wouldn’t have been right in this gun. The stock finish was about 100%, as were the case colors. Stunning, stunning old gun.

I dismantled, cleaned, lubed and lacquered the case colors. I used the artist grade Krylon crystal clear in the can, laid it on a bit too thick, stripped it off in a pan of gun cleaner grade lacquer thinner, and then laid it on too thick again. Left that be.

The gun looks phenomenal. Working grade guns usually end up as beaters, and this one is anything but. I’d do it again in a heartbeat, but, not to a typical old gun.

I take it out to a spot that requires non toxic shot, I have a small stash of heavi-metal 1 oz loads, and enjoy the fact that my C R eligible 16 gauge is my non toxic gun.

I’ve lacquered a few. Depends on the gun, I wouldn’t do it to just any gun, but, some things that come my way that are very nice, I try to be a bit of a curator, rather than the guy who used it up.



Best,
Ted

So not black oxide. Good deal.
JR

I've got a Cole custom Beretta that was color case hardened by Doug Turnbull. I emailed Rich Cole about putting lacquer on it and here was his reply: "Even with a coat of lacquer the case colors can wear. I have also seen where moisture has gotten under the lacquer and rusted the surface metal. I am not a fan of coating the case colors of a gun."

Carl got his colors back:





Looks better, no?

Best,
Ted

Yep, Thanks Ted for the pics post.
Carl

Ted,
Why yes it does! In reply to the suggestion of rust under a coating, My 28 ga. Merkel came to me with what I believe was some sort of clear coating. I could see some faint rusting or something under the coating in some areas of the engraving. After removing said coating and lightly polishing, it came back to it's beauty. That particular gun had been engraved by Gerhard Liebscher, Mwrkel"s master shop engraver at the time so preservation was important to me. Shoot and enjoy that gun in good health!
Karl

What's the consensus on using True Oil instead of lacquer?

Not I. How about paste wax - that's the most I would use. Mostly I just use ATF.

I put good old Tree Wax on. That's good stuff and has carnauba wax in it...tough wax. Anyone heard of it harming finishes?

Trewax.

https://www.amazon.com/Trewax-Natural-Carnauba-12-35-Ounce-887101016/dp/B005SRV1PI

I don't think it could hurt a finish, in and of itself. But, rubbing too much or too hard when buffing it off might accelerate wear. I use Renaissance Wax. Same difference.

I understand that many waxes, especially those advertised as cleaner waxes or polishing waxes, contain very fine abrasive particles such as clay in addition to the wax. For that reason, I avoid using it as a product to protect case colors, even though it would likely take a lot of buffing to notice any wear over time. Sometimes when change is barely perceptible, by the time we notice anything, the damage is done.

Our flintlock deer season just ended a couple days ago, and I noticed the case hardening colors on my rifle's lock still show virtually no signs of wear or thinning after several decades of use, and frequent exposure to rain, snow, and black powder residue. This is without any clear coats or protection aside from gun oil. I also have some guns that have only traces of remaining case colors, and it makes me wonder what previous owners did to make them nearly disappear.

It would also be interesting to know who did the case hardening job on Carl's L.C. Smith, and what pack formula and technique he used to get those predominately blue colors. They come closer to approximating original Lefever colors than many restorations I see.

I believe Oscar Gaddy used Behlen's spray lacquer on freshly case colored Parkers and Damascus barrels.

I believe (vs know for a fact) the colors fade due to wear and maybe slightly acidic sweat and human oils. And perhaps very slightly acidic gun oils. I think this explains how colors are retained better in inside corners.

And the salt from your hands and sweaty gloves. This can also dye the wood on the guns people shoot to the color of their gloves. I've seen this happen, too. I had a buddy whose forearm turned red from the color of his gloves because his hands sweated so much when he shot.

Yes he did. I tried it because of hie recommendation but ended up preferring just naked colors. I also remove some colors unevenly using simichrome paste on a cotton glove and handling the gun as I would carry and shoot it.

Bill Schwarz is my gunsmith and has been for a long time. He is located in East Ellijay Ga. He did the case coloring on the LC.
Having said that, I'd like to find someone that is familiar with Manufrance Ideal's. I've got an old "Spectacle" trigger double that I'd like some fine tuning on and Bill is not so interested as he is not familiar with them. Anyone have a suggestion?

Thanks Carl, for sharing the name of the gunsmith who did the case hardening on your L.C. Smith. I'm sure he wouldn't share his secret recipe or techniques, but the results indicate he is doing something different to get those deep colors and such complete coverage. Knowing that exposure to air while dumping the pack into the quench tank seems to have the opposite effect, if I ever get around to trying case hardening, I think I'd like to experiment with purging the air at the top of the quench drum with a heavier than air inert welding gas like argon/CO2


I've often wondered why anyone would pay good money to have case hardening done, and then use Simichrome paste or Scotch-Brite to remove some of the colors.... unless trying to fake honest wear, which happens eventually with normal use, and which most of us hope to avoid.

It sounds about like buying a brand new truck or car, and then intentionally adding stone chips, scratches, and parking lot dents to make it look well used. Or maybe like a lady paying a plastic surgeon to add crow's feet, sagging skin, and age spots to her face. Of course, in a similar vein, some gun owners knowingly vote for the Democrats who wish to ban our guns, which makes a strong case for I.Q. testing of voters. (I had to sneak that in for the Nutty Professor and his Liberal Democrat pals!)

Thanks Carl, for sharing the name of the gunsmith who did the case hardening on your L.C. Smith. I'm sure he wouldn't share his secret recipe or techniques, but the results indicate he is doing something different to get those deep colors and such complete coverage. Knowing that exposure to air while dumping the pack into the quench tank seems to have the opposite effect, if I ever get around to trying case hardening, I think I'd like to experiment with purging the air at the top of the quench drum with a heavier than air inert welding gas like argon/CO2


I've often wondered why anyone would pay good money to have case hardening done, and then use Simichrome paste or Scotch-Brite to remove some of the colors.... unless trying to fake honest wear, which happens eventually with normal use, and which most of us hope to avoid.

It sounds about like buying a brand new truck or car, and then intentionally adding stone chips, scratches, and parking lot dents to make it look well used. Or maybe like a lady paying a plastic surgeon to add crow's feet, sagging skin, and age spots to her face. Of course, in a similar vein, some gun owners knowingly vote for the Democrats who wish to ban our guns, which makes a strong case for I.Q. testing of voters. (I had to sneak that in for the Nutty Professor and his Liberal Democrat pals!)