doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Interesting English boxlock ejector at Hallowell

From the description:

"A very high quality gun, inexplicably unsigned. "

www.hallowellco.com/english____boxlock_ejector____12.html

I wonder if it even has a serial number.

Do we see sterile British shotguns at all? Any ideas how that might have come about? And would anyone care to take a stab at guessing its maker, based on the design, the pin locations....?

Are we sure it's British?

He sure is proud of it….

Best,
Ted

Reminds me of a Dan Fraser gun.

Too much drop in stock, and may have a sunken rib, which I personally abhor, but otherwise a nice gun. Price is nothing but throwing it against the wall and see what sticks. Needs thinwall choke tubes, afaic.
JR

Not sure of anything. However, the Birmingham proofmarks suggest it's probably not a Baikal.

Perfect drop at the heel, as far as I'm concerned. A bit short LOP. Really nice piece of wood and beautifully carved fences that deserve a few more photographs.

I was thinking the same thing. If you're going to mess around with an English shotgun, mess around with one that will have little or no value to the carriage trade- an unattributable example. I'd get a pair of Skeet tubes, and a fistload of Modifieds and tighter for Trap, and be silly-happy, and I'd shoot the whee out of it.

"Oh, hey, cool side-by-side! Looks English! Is that a Purdey-Richards or something?"

"No one knows. No rollmarks. It's an enigma. It may in fact be Estonian."

I think it's a really pretty shotgun, which is why I'm so curious about how it came to be adrift, records-wise. (And yes, Professor, that wood and those fences.)

As an importer, I've see many no name Brit guns. It does looks sculpted like a Fraser.

The chokes are about perfect for anything I’d do with it. For some reason, I’m able to shoot a gun with 2 3/4” drop just fine off my right shoulder, which I could never do off my left shoulder. It looks to be in spectacular condition, but, I’d guess as a box lock ejector, it is priced about double what it is worth here in the US. I think that would be generous. If it was still in England, the family would be looking for about 1000£ for it, and would be thrilled to get 750£.

It would be nice to have an English gun that you could feed off-the-shelf ammunition to. I likely wouldn’t feed it a steady diet of 1 1/4 oz loads, but, hell, a guy could.

Best,
Ted

Shame that heel plate is the way it is.

Also I agree with Ted on price. if the gun was in UK.

I think it's pretty but too heavy for me.

I have a 6 10oz 2 3/4 1 1/4 oz gun George Graham I have had it for 20 years ,Plain gun never fails I do not think it's heavy at all

Could be wrong but my guess its a worked up BSA . Chopper lump barrels are a good clue .
I have seen a few BSA 's finished with others names on , but not as fancy as this one .

Ted--You're not the Lone Ranger on drop. I haven't swapped shoulders, but I'm now shooting more drop and a shorter LOP than I used to. Changes related to age, perhaps? I know that I've lost a couple inches in height, but I didn't think my arms were any shorter.

Getting back to the gun: Very nice piece. As a pre-1925 gun, chamber length wasn't a required proofmark. But I see no comment in the test telling us whether it's 2 1/2" or 2 3/4". Would it be all that unusual for a gun proofed 1 1/4 oz from that era to have 2 1/2" chambers?

At the very top of the listing page, above the first picture, it says it's 2-3/4".

Bolsters on the forend wood are also Fraser-esque.

The expert eye !!! Made a good job of it ,whoever did it.

Had another look at the photo's .
The Chopper lump barrels are dovetailed together which is exactly the same as BSA did and that and the " bolsters " around the bottom of the fences say the same . Not a betting man but I'll put a Dollar ( yes a whole one) against it being anything else .

Yes. My bad. I was apparently entranced by the photo and didn't look above it. I was just over to the Hallowell website and I see that's where they put chamber length on all their guns.

I have a Charles Boswell pigeon/waterfowl gun that is very simaler to this. Fences almost the same and the engaving looks like it could have been done by the same person or "school". The barrels on my gun are actually stamped with the BSA logo. The proofs and address put my gun somewhere around 1913.

I think Gunman could be on the right track. Nothing to stop BSA selling a gun 'in the white' to be finished elsewhere and not that unusual to see a 'no name' gun waiting to sell into the Trade to be finished off and a name applied later. The 1 1/4 ounce mark indicates 2 3/4" chambers. That is the problem when trying to research English guns in that the name on the gun may be nothing to do with who actually made it. I have a couple with names on but no information in any listings on that name. Lagopus.....

Well done, Gunman, you beat me to it. I wanted to look at the markings on the bottom of my BSA BLE for comparison before posting.

I noticed that the chopper lump barrels did not have a dividing line down the middle, and if they are dovetailed (the photo is not very clear)they are certainly BSA Jessops Fluid Steel chopper lump barrels.

Those BSA guns, although machine made, were built with first class materials and one taken in the white to a good action filer and then engraved would produce a lovely gun.

I had a bsa deluxe ejector never used it much before it went down the road nice looking gun though.

I'd been wondering about the lack of a visible joint line on the lumps.

And I'm still trying to imagine the motive for and the circumstances under which such a shotgun would receive such an engraving job, not to mention pretty nice wood, yet not have any identifying marks on it. Sort of like spotting an old Rolex Explorer wristwatch with no text on the dial save the tiny word 'SWISS.' Only those who know, would know.

My inner storyteller will be musing about this one for years.

The customer might not have wanted a name on it.

Best,
Ted

That would strike me as being rather avant-garde, iconoclastic thinking for the era it was proofed in. I love it. I own a few garments and messenger bags from a cutting-edge high performance technical streetwear company that are either completely logo-free on the outside, or feature small Velcro logo patches one can opt to not apply. Real secret-handshake stuff.

I like this shotgun even more, now, Mister Schefelbein. For the story it's quietly refusing to tell us.

Write the check and give us a full report

Heh. Willingly. I simply hope you'll be around fifteen years from now when I update my report to describe what it's been like to live my twilight years shooting casual Skeet twice per week with a thoroughly enigmatic side-by-side English boxlock while subsisting on packaged ramen, bog roll pilfered from construction site Port-A-Loos, and twice-used coffee grounds. And sleeping in my Trabant shooting brake.

Hrm.

Maybe I should ask him if he'll take $6500.

This is a test of "buy the gun, not the name" philosophy.

It is a nice gun and, obviously, some effort has been expended to balance it, but it's too heavy for my purposes.

GREAT info, Graham. Good to have your input here.

Best,
Ted

Your purposes clearly do not involve being carried on a palanquin everywhere you go.

Aaahhh. Merci. I'd had no idea.

I guess what I'm after is, how unusual is it to see an ornately fully-finished no-name in circulation? Of that origin and vintage? I mean, I vaguely remember seeing pictures of some same-period continental shotguns dressed to the nines with pearls 'round their necks and bearing no discernible provenance, but never something English.

That action looks a lot like a facile princeps. I am not saying it is one. Just that the resemblance is strong. Nice gun though.

No name quality guns separate wheat from the chaff, the shotgun fanciers from those that really appreciate good work. I have seen supposedly knowledgeable "collectors"reject superbly made guns for the lack of a name and pay dearly for named iffy ones .

wonderful imagery...

It is certainly a BSA, they were all made with an action body shape similar to the Facile Princeps but were of course A&D actions.



Note the action shape and screw and pins placement on the BSA BLE “specially made for Fletchers of Gloucester”.



And the shape of the bottom plate (loads of room for engraving).



Dovetailed chopper lumps.

Sooo … inside my £150 (if I am lucky) BSA lurks a $6,995 best boxlock just waiting to be liberated by a good action filer, engraver and stocker (the existing walnut, straight grained with a “fiddle back” ain’t bad).

I believe BSA directors and senior employees may have used De Luxe models.

I wonder if one of them made this anonymous example as a “show and tell” gun - “Who do you think made this?”

You could, of course, do the same with a Baikal although your barrel man might wear out a few files striking down the barrels to achieve acceptable handling qualities

It would be pretty expensive (unless the customer’s name was Vladimir Putin when it would probably be FOC).

Nobody is likely to pay 7,000 for a no name box lock. Asking and getting are two different things. For seven grand you can find a not too worn out named London side lock. I suspect if you looked hard you could find a few $7,000 box locks but only a few. The tip of an iceberg.

I wonder who made it, and then why. Was it by request of a buyer? Was it done by someone in the trade as a proof of what could be done if money was no object? You can’t build a reputation for fine work without a signature. Perhaps it was done in the trade for personal use.

One other thought. What would it be worth with a name? I don’t know if I’d pay $7,000 with a name. It is what it is. A highly finished box lock, in a world which sells equal finished side plates for more than box locks.

Knowing the roots of the gun extend to BSA, my estimate of price might be optimistic. Both here, and in Olde Blighty.

Best,
Ted

I wish to thank everyone who chimed-in. I have a far better idea of what I'm looking at, now.

Still fascinated by the thing. About how and why it came to exist. But now, I have a good few story outlines.

Aaaand I just thought of something: Could it have been a student/trainee engraver's pièce d'école? Did engravers of that era have trade schools to go to, or was it strictly apprenticeship?

Just an fyi Fudd, but Morris Hallowell is a weird duck. He comes up with some interesting stuff, but talking to him is like talking to a Martian. Y'all don't tell him I said that.
JR

Merci. Timing is everything. I was just contemplating mailing him to tell him that the hive mind here had pretty well established that the thing started out as a bog-standard, commercial-for-rebadging, in-the-white BSA, and linking to this thread. I'll now put the brakes on that, lest he excoriate and ablate us for obscuring his view of Venus.

I irregularly look at his offerings just to see what he's got, sort of the way I used to read the Eaton's Christmas catalogue when it arrived every November when I was less than four feet tall. I've never met the man nor spoken to him, but based on his ad copy, he seems to be a member of the "True Enthusiast" subcategory of humanity. I know a few of those, might in fact be one, and I tend to look upon them kindly. I enjoy looking at what he's got up for sale, and reading his descriptions.

I still really like that shotgun. Hrm. Perhaps I should make him an offer in original series Star Trek credits. "Please ship via transporter."

I think in England they started an apprenticeship and at some point went to specialities like action work stock work engraving.but there were shops like kell ,jack summer that did engrave and train engravers

May I add the Henry Morris engraving shop in Birmingham to your list .

You are correct about apprentice ships , having been through this system myself . Although in my own time I was fortunate enough to avoid being to specialised and over my 48 working years was able to become experienced in actions , stocking and barrel work .

The gun we are talking about looks to be English work overall and has the look of a " gunsmiths gun" .By which I mean a gun that has been built or rebuilt with all the bells and whistles that you think a good gun should have ( The famous Scales gun being a good example )

The fact it is not signed is a mystery but IMO could have been made as show piece by a Gun Finisher , these were people who would work up barrelled actions for shops , smaller makers and do out work for larger companies , this could be a example of their work.
We may never know .

Thank you very much, sir.

I'm ignorant of the Scales gun, and it seems google-resistant. Are there pictures to see, anywhere?

Shooting Sportsman did an article on it, but you can’t get to the article online. Scales

It was for sale at Foxhill, but they have retired and the website is no longer active.

Ken

Merci. It seems they ran two articles about it, May/June and July/August 2007. I've just found a copy of each on Lithuanian Craigslist (in the, ahem, Personals section), and I've ordered them.

Gunmaker, you are most likely right about this gun. I was wondering what this gun would be worth where you are? You see how hot our debate is. I see nice box locks bringing very modest sums at auction but a few still bring respectable prices for highest grades or pristine condition. Is this a thousand pound gun? Twice that?

I've received those back-issues of 'Shooting Sportsman' with the articles about the Scales gun. Quite a good read.

History and reality can be quite different .Something I have discovered many times as I get older .