doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Francotte models explained?

I have owned several Francotte doubles...sort of an infatuation. I don't find the differences between models clear or easy to identify. For example, differences between the model 14 and 18 boxlocks are not obvious. Similarly or worse, the differences between the sideplated models 20 and 25. Is there some source explaining and illustrating the differences? I don't know if there is any literature, like a book, about the maker and these guns. IMO these guns were really finely crafted in particular, up to about the 1930's when A&F took over.

From doc Hause other site
https://www.shotgunworld.com/threads/abercrombie-fitch-von-lengerke-detmold-and-francotte.393236/

I have a francotte built on the Westley Richards 1884 pat.so it is earlyer then the guns sold by vld,it is a very nicely made gun even though it's has little engraving but beautiful Damascus barrels and the workmanship is first rate and a really nice piece of wood it is one of my favorite guns .

As Doc Drew pointed out in the link above, Griffin & Howe retain the A&F records, which cover the guns imported by them as well as earlier records from VL&D and VL&A. Previously, you could get very detailed research on any of those guns, courtesy of Bob Beach. But I don't believe that anyone at Griffin & Howe has replaced him.

Everything on the Shotgun World site is courtesy of Bob Beach.
Cornell Pubs has many Von Lengerke & Detmold catalog reprints if one wanted to collate Francotte models offered over time
https://cornellpubs.com/?s=Francotte

The reason that I have always had an interest in Von Lengerke and Antoine is because that is the store where one of my Model 21s was sent to in 1947.

Thanks for the connection to historical info about this gunmaker. However, none of this helps me ID or differentiate between particular models. For example, go to the William Larkin Moore catalog (https://williamlarkinmoore.com/inventory/itemid/6542) listed as an 18E and Robin Hollow listing for a 14E: (https://www.gunsinternational.com/g...-grade-14-12-gauge.cfm?gun_id=102488477.) I had a gun sold to me that was called a 14E that looked a lot like the Wm Larkin Moore 18E... To continue, here's one listed as a 25E (https://www.gunsinternational.com/g...e-25e-20g-1084.cfm?gun_id=102464989#lg-7) by Griffin and Howe. Compare it to the 20E listed here: (https://www.gunsinternational.com/g...arrels-ejector.cfm?gun_id=102506327#lg-4). Come to think of it, maybe I should call Griffin and Howe and ask them. They sold me a model 30. Thanks for the replies!

Trying to ID Francotte models based on sale listings doesn't work very well but a collection of VL&D catalogs should help
Interesting how many Jubilee guns are for sale
https://www.gunsinternational.com/s...=jubilee&start_row=1&the_order=6
or not
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=361368

Drew, which model is called a "Jubilee"? I assumed it was a 45E. I think some sellers mislabel the model of these Francotte guns. Not sure it matters to anyone, though... Mike

Don’t forget the possibility that the dealers don’t know what they have. The 25E advertised at G&H is what I would call a 20E.

The 25’s I’ve had & seen have more engraving and with a flower/vine thing that looks like a long funnel.

Dealers can justify a higher price if they can convince you they have a higher grade gun for sale.

Bro. Beach explains the Jubilee guns in the link I posted.
More
"There were 21 different models of Francotte's sold by VL&D between 1889 and 1909. The Jubilee model was a low-end gun (one step above the Knockabout) built for Abercrombie & Fitch in 1939 - hence the name Jubilee which celebrated the 50th anniversary of the importation of Francotte's by VL&D/A&F."

You have to go to jtplumb's link to Drew's link to Shotgunworld to see Bob Beach's definitive list of Francotte grades. Sorry, it isn't easy, but that's just what you have to do.

bsteele-I agree with your assessment of the G&H 20ga listed as a 25E Looks plain to me. Mike

Wish I could post a picture here as it would inspire comment.

bsteele-I have the same model you describe, with the bold vine engraving. Not at all like the G&H 25 advertised. Mine was sold to me as a 20E. When I asked the seller how he knew it was a 20, he said he wasn't certain of it...

This?
https://www.gunsinternational.com/g...-a-gorgeous-shotgun.cfm?gun_id=101448531
The date code is 1937 and it's not a Jubilee

1937 VL&D catalog is available
https://www.ebay.com/itm/290893129934

Drew- I agree with your comment on the 1937 gun. Looks like what I would call a model 25. I think my gun is also a Model 25. Those catalogs are rather pricey.