doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com SKB Update please

Mine has a use number 1206, the Anson and Deeley’s mark in the photo above is not very clearly stamped.

Neither the pyramidical and the round cocking levers lasted very long before they were replaced by the neater rectangular cocking levers that remain in use today.

I used to own an early 20 bore Reilly A&D boxlock with dolls head bolt only (No under bolt) and that had round cocking bars as does this similar Edwinson Green 12 bore.



Both (or their actions) may well have been made by Westley Richards.

Because of the round cocking levers I wondered if someone other then greener made the action.do you think greener was actually making A&D action guns two of my greener have brazier markings one 1878 one1886 the later one has the blade type of cocking levers and looks like most normal A&D actions

Why wouldn’t they? They certainly had the factory (a real factory, not a make believe factory, like one with real machines and tooling….you know, to actually make things😀), they had the personnel and the resources, expertise and capital.

21 July 1877, "The Field" - First Greener advertisement for the A&D. Don't know what exactly "to use" meant but Donald Dallas contends that no gun maker outside of Birmingham save for one exception in Edinburgh actually "made" the box lock. (Since Greener had a workshop in Birmingham - perhaps he is an exception?)

email from 20 October 2021

I very much doubt if any London maker built boxlocks. They were so easy to buy in, either finished or partially finished from Birmingham that there was no point in going to all the bother of tooling up. The London gun trade specialised in sidelocks and Birmingham boxlocks. The only makers that I know who either built or partially built their own boxlocks were Jospeh Harkom and Daniel Fraser of Edinburgh. Both their designs were unique and differed from the normal trade boxlock.

Regards,
Donald Dallas

Because why set up for an action you can get from the trade also after 1881 greener had a propriety gun they were selling greener wouldn't have to increase it's capacity and could use outworkers to finish A&Dactions or barreled actions.

I’d say because they had an even bigger investment in their own rather large factory, craftsmen, apprentices, machinery, tooling etc. Factories that large didn’t normally use the out worker system that the small makers did. They didn’t have to, they accomplished damn near everything in house. The only exception being a requested particular engraver by a client for a custom ordered gun. I doubt W&C Scott, Webleys, BSA, etc ever used the outworker system either.
Maybe very early on in the A&D era, Greeners used actions from the trade, solely because they had to because of patent laws and a learning curve (a relatively fast learning curve I’d imagine with their expertise being pretty damn competent in gunmaking already) in making an A&D action.
As large as Greeners was, with their expertise, manufacturing capacity and factory space, I don’t think it would be too much trouble to set up a couple machines to machine up a&d actions (not difficult) and parts (not many).
Greeners made A&D actions for a long time. Lots and Lots of A&D empires around the world in the old colonies.
Obviously we aren’t talking about the very late A&D guns that were made by Webley & Scott for Greeners in the 50’s and on. Those obviously aren’t “really” Greener guns.

We're some Empires a&d guns? The ones I have taken to bits were not.

I know between the beginning of 1878 and as late as 1886 greener bought from brazier I don't know how many ,but I think setting up building actions barrels and stocking when you go can buy from the trade and finish it makes a lot of sense .who knows I could never find how many actions brazier made for the trade but there were many company's that made for the trade.i was reading about a small company that put out something like 8000 guns for the trade and almost nothing in there name.

I have a fine Needham needlefire with the bolt action made by Brazier.

Was Needham owned by ww greener? Do you have pictures?.Mark