doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Steel shot testing 2023

And it begins again... another discussion of the alleged dangers of lead ammunition begins its' descent into chaos, personal attacks, and name-calling. Based upon past behavior, I'm sure the professor's Canadian pal would likely say that I started the brouhaha too.


This QUOTE from LGF was interesting. He gives purely anecdotal evidence of hundreds of ducks suffering from alleged lead poisoning. He didn't actually see it. He took someone else's word for it. Then he tells us the lead that Condors allegedly ingest comes from gut piles or ground squirrels killed with lead .22's. We know that ingested lead is toxic to various degrees. However, there are quite a few sources of environmental lead in California, yet all these anti-lead advocates are blind to every other more bio-available source of lead except these vast numbers of lead contaminated carcasses and gut piles. Now that the lead ammo is banned there, do you think they will reconsider the bans when Condors still get sick?

Answer: A resounding NO! They will instead blame lead ammo from other states, or from skeet and trap ranges. In the Thread linked to above, we already saw that the 1997 study done by the Univ. of Minnesota saw no decrease in lead poisoning in Eagles versus their famous 1991 study, despite good no-tox ammo compliance from hunters after the Federal lead ammo ban. It became quite obvious that Eagles must be getting lead into their systems from other sources. And suddenly, the facts changed, and the blame was placed on deer hunters and gut piles that allegedly had hundreds of lead fragments in them. Lead from paint, pesticides, industrial sources, or decades of millions of tons of microscopic particles from burning leaded gasolines were not considered by the anti-lead ammo zealots.

We asked many questions about the so-called "science" that led to Lead ammo bans before, in the Thread the Preacher provided the link to, and several other Threads. We had an anti-lead zealot who used to routinely dump links to dozens of articles and papers which he obviously never read or understood. When he, or the nutty professor, or other anti-lead ammunition guys were questioned about highly questionable or conflicting data, they refused to answer, or resorted to other cowardly behaviors.

I asked about an eagle that supposedly had a blood lead level many times the lethal dose... yet that bird was strong enough to fly and perch on a tree branch. How is this even remotely possible?

I asked about numerous papers that gave wildly conflicting and different numbers for what constituted a lethal dose of lead in the blood of ducks. I got no reply to a very valid question.

I asked why ducks and geese suddenly stopped dying from lead poisoning when all of the lead ever fired over our lakes, ponds, and sea shores was still there??? Nobody cleaned it up. But all of a sudden, the ducks apparently stopped dying en masse from lead poisoning. And let's not forget that these are migratory birds that winter over in Central American countries that didn't ban lead shot. So the birds were still quite able to ingest shot, carry it in their crops, and even have a few pellets embedded under their skin from being shot at. As far as I can determine, lead shot is still legal for waterfowl in Mexico and other parts of Central and South America.

It became apparent that many of the disciples of supporting lead ammo bans either hadn't really read the data, or were not intelligent enough to see glaring faults and discrepancies.

I gave sound examples of the "Science" being either wrong or dishonest. I provided examples of "Science" that had data manipulated or falsified to reach a predetermined conclusion. Yet we are told to blindly "Believe the Science". We are mocked when we question the "Science". And we are also expected to believe obvious agenda driven lies that make zero sense, and don't even remotely agree with the bullshit they and their peers print. Then we are expected to simply move on and forget that they lied to us, and to stand idly by like sheep as the anti-gun forces continue to attack lead ammo, attempt to sue gun and ammo makers into bankruptcy, and make hunting and shooting much less affordable.

Worse yet, there is a faction right here that will be doing everything they can to convince Dave Weber to lock or delete this Thread, and to Censor any further discussion... all in the name of phony civility.

I linked the previous thread so we could be spared repeating ourselves.
Here's the Eagle thread
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=543722

Literature review from 2008
https://science.peregrinefund.org/legacy-sites/conference-lead/PDF/0307%20Tranel.pdf

Recent review with > 125 references, most of which can be accessed by clicking on the reference
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13280-019-01159-0

This is interesting, for any of us with embedded shot
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4139699/

And BTW William, my name is Drew, please use it and thanks.

Sounds like they have their head in the sand?

I was not aware that concern regarding lead toxicity and waterfowl started in the 50s.
"Lead Poisoning in Wild Waterfowl" was published in 1951
https://www.ideals.illinois.edu/items/17375

This is a good review in 1966
https://archive.org/details/ontariofishwildlv5n2onta/page/8/mode/2up

Nilo Farms - Olin Corp. - Winchester were early movers in the effort to avoid waterfowl losses from lead
1961
https://iopn.library.illinois.edu/journals/inhs/article/view/172
1975
R.S. Holmes, "Lead poisoning in waterfowl : dosage and dietary study: joint report of Illinois Natural History Survey and Olin Corporation, Winchester Group"

Of course the Greens, Audubon Society, etc. appropriated what was a legitimate effort on the part of sportsmen and conservationists; and here we are today.

Population of the US in 1970, 205 million, waterfowl hunters that year, supposedly the peak, 2 million. Today, 330 million in the US, maybe 10 percent illegally, half the waterfowl hunters.

And here we are today, the center for biological diversity chelating condors and the fifth largest economy in the world, gladly feeding sea turtle tons of plastic and stainless steel illegal drug needle litter. There may be double the upland bird hunters, and a few of us have noticed waterfowl feeding in the grain field of pheasant country.

I get it, 'friends' of ours don't like hunters and shooters.

And then there’s this….I’ve seen nowhere, in any of these studies where “they” can determine with empirical, evidence that the lead found in the carcasses of these birds was actually from lead shot specifically. They somehow ruled out every single naturally occurring environmental or industrial factor? Hmmmm. Damn that’s weird.
Leaded gasoline? Lead used in industry? Pollution of all types? Contaminated rivers, streams, lakes, etc from decade upon decade of industrial dumping and waste. Great way to slant an argument to suit your purposes, just leave all that out.

Another thought…Avian Cholera. You know, the diarrhea, green and yellow runny stools and stained butts, erratic behavior, lethargy, mental and physical issues, etc. Were all of these dead carcasses tested for Avian cholera? Nah. They weren’t. Can’t dig em up and test them now can we. The symptoms described as lead poisoning by all the experts sure sound like EXACTLY the same as what happens when a bird is infected with cholera or bird flu.
Avian Cholera was detected in North America in the 40’s. How was the science and research into Avian disease in the 1940’s-the 70’s? Not exactly high tech or highly funded.
There were a few “big” outbreaks of avian disease during the exact times all of these so called studies were taking place. Especially in the 1970’s. That’s facts, yet never mentioned by the lead shot haters. Weird. South America as far as I can tell, has never had a significant outbreak of Avian Cholera or Flu. Until recently, they just started jumping on the lead shot ban yet they haven’t had any significant decrease in waterfowl populations. Hmmmm.

START reading. You haven't seen them because you haven't looked. Now, they due stable isotope analyses to determine lead source.

And anyone worth calling a biologist knows how to diagnose avian cholera from lead poisoning. You gotta try harder if you want to make up alternative facts.

Suck it, Brent. You’re the biggest pair of clown shoes here. 😂😂😂

So prof, when were these tests initiated for waterfowl studies, before or after the lead shot ban? Do you still shoot large lead slugs into the far off distant country side, or do the woodcock and condors, not frolic in your neck of the woods.

How about providing a little anecdotal evidence, modern notox 45 cal bullets run through barrels from the late 1800's, unicorn and isotopes play at the base of rainbows. No, I think you want to kill off sport shooting, as long as you can afford it your way with lead, before you call it a day, huh prof.