doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Different loads/Different patterns

Today I continued trying various loads seeing which one I would finally choose as "the" one for my preferred load. I am not a scholar on ballastics, etc...and thus I am somewhat intriqued on how different loads pattern so dramtically different from others. Even more intriquing is how basically the same load specs are used but from different manufacturer's can be so drastically different.

Later today I plan to shoot several more rounds and compare the results. As per a previous post of mine on patterning my L.C. Smith Field Grade, I used #4's then and really liked the pattern. Today, I shot a load of #5's, and was not impressed at all, it was a much thinner pattern. I have a few other loads of #5's including some hand loads that were special made coming in at around 7000 psi with 1 1/4 oz's of Nickel plate #5 to try out.

Mainly I was just curious if many others have found vast differences in the pattern quality when switching between various manufactures and also by going up or down in size of shot. It was posted in my patterning thread, that #5's probably would pattern better, thus far, they don't come close to the pattern with the #4's, but I have several more to try. Your thoughts?

My thoughts on this topic are that, for the most part, it's a waste of time. Unless you shoot hundreds of patterns, you haven't proven anything more than what that one or two patterns happened to look like, that particular day. There are more #5 pellets in a given charge of shot, than #4s, therefore the only way #5s would produce a "thinner" pattern would be if the pattern was also larger in diameter. This might also be true as larger shot usually produces tighter patterns because it deforms less than smaller shot. I'd suggest using the size recommended for the game you seek and see how it performs in the field. Time spent on learning to shoot better is far better spent than time trying to re-invent the wheel. Shot size selection for the game and choke recommendations have been well established, long before we were born. JMO, of course.

Jim's got it, Jason. For my money, I mount the gun as if I'm shooting at a bird---straight up and let 'er go at the big dot---and then see (1) if I (or the gun) is shooting where my eyes were looking, and then (2) look at the pattern to see if a bird could have flown through. That's all, for the reasons above.

Chuck H recently posted about primers. Here is a link he provided: http://www.armbrust.acf2.org/primersubs.htm

Tony documents how different primers can change the pressure. Furthe down, he shows from his testing how that then changes the pattern.

Pete

I did a lot of pattern testing loads in the 1970s. The most important factor turned out to be quality of shot (hardness and roundness) -- no surprise. Cu plating on really hard, round shot patterned about 5% tighter than the same shot without plating. With soft, irregular size and shape shot I could get at least one full decrease in nominal choke, sometimes two, from percentages same load did with quality shot. Soft shot, plated with Cu is still soft shot.

I also rediscovered the obvious fact that one needs to count the actual number of pellets in a load, not assume the nominal values given in tables.

I did find some loads that patterned tighter or looser, given the same shot. Another useful result was that above a certain volume of shot, the patterns got progressively thinner for my guns. This was 1 3/8 oz for normal 12s (70 and 76 mm chambers), 1 1/8 oz for 16 and 76 mm 20s. No surprise here either.

I also found some loads that gave more consistent pattern percentages than others, again, no surprise.

Size of shot did not have a consistent effect on pattern density, again, no surprise.

All this was quite usefull to me. It made my use of my guns with my reloads a much more predictable activity.

I still sometimes pattern my guns, especially ones new to me, mostly to determine how close POA and POI are for me. When I went back to waterfowling many years ago I patterned several loads with bismuth and Kent TM. Those "ugly" bismith pellets patterned quite tightly, almost independent of choke. The Kent TM behaved more like Pb alloy shot in the same guns.

Patterning is a highly recommended activity for shooters, with their loads in their guns. No more, no less.

Niklas

If you really want to know, then you are looking at statistical analysis of each pattern and you will need five to ten patterns per load. We aren't talking about just counting the holes, either. You have to know where the holes are. The only tool I know of that does this is the patterning analysis program based on digital photos of patterns that Dr. Andrew Jones has out. It is still a lot of work, but the results are real.

Any shooting activity is fun, IMO. You will learn from patterning. Unfortunately, you will also be tempted to "learn" too much from the data you collect. There is a lot of variation among patterns shot with the same gun and identical loads. The only way to account for said variation is to include a lot (5 to 10) of patterns in your analysis.

Post back if you care to discuss further.

Jason,

You have stumbled into the black art to shotgun patterning, it will tell you a lot about your gun.

You will get information about.
• The point of aim of you gun.
• The amount of recoil for different loads.
• How the various brands of ammo or various reloads respond to your choke
• Holes in your pattern.
• Dirty barrels, especially the effect of fowling around the choke tubes or the changes due to Black powder fowling.
• How changing reloading component can change all of the above.

As mentioned you will not get a definitive answer as to which load will always gives the best and most consistent patterns but you will learn which combinations your gun simply does not like.

Unfortunately “always” and “never” do not exist in the shotgun world but therein lies the challenge.

Good luck,

Thanks to all who have replied. I am not about to start a "scientfic comparision" here, I just wanted to see what patterns certain loads threw down range so I knew what to expect on performace on various game. I have learned that. No further study needed, dead is dead, and either load of #4's or #5's will do the job. Of course the #5's have more pellets, but it seems to me, that the #4's have a a more dense core pattern, and thus it's my choice for turkeys next week when I finally get to go.

No further testing for me unless I try a new load. I do always pattern a new load to see how it performs. I hope my next set of pictures about patterns show up in the form of a nice Missouri Long Beard laid out nice and pretty next to my L.C. Smith!

"Those "ugly" bismith pellets patterned quite tightly, almost independent of choke. The Kent TM behaved more like Pb alloy shot in the same guns."

"Quite tightly" indeed, Niklas.

Has anyone ever seen the "holes" in one pattern be repeated in the next? I'm talking about the hole being in the same place(s) and about the same size. I'd be surprised if anyone honestly can say they have. If you did, what could/did you possibly do about it?