doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Charles Dawson, Birmingham

Hello:

i'm looking at a Birmingham BLE in very nice condition, see: https://imgur.com/a/p00pos0

However, I can find no information about this maker.

Is anyone able to enlighten me with details about 'Charles Dawson' ?

Cheers!

mbatten

I cannot find anything on a Charles Dawson in my books. I read the Birmingham viewers mark (crossed swords) as a letter N which would indicate it was proofed in 1962. I will send a note to Malcolm Cruxton who still has a shop in Price Street to ask him about Dawson.

The engraving is very well done.

Stephen Howell

Can’t help with that maker, but, that is a good looking gun. It has a ton of cast, listed as 1/2”.

Nice gun. Good luck.

Best,
Ted

mbatten;

Malcolm Cruxton who was working in the trade in Birmingham at the time that the Charles Dawson gun was built does not remember "the Dawson chap". That is very interesting as Malcolm is about 80 years old still working in the trade and knows everybody.

Whatever the maker the gun is in remarkable condition to be nearly 60 years old and with its proof (the old Birmingham proof) pressures you should be well pleased with it. As Ted mentioned someone must have done some bending on the butt stock as it looks a bit odd---but that could be sorted out. It is almost like the gun has been in a closet for 50 years.

Stephen Howell

a very handsome b'ham boxlock....and in grand condition.

the posted description says a half inch of cast off....but, unless all the photos are reversed....the pictured gun has cast-on, not cast-off.

would be grand for a lefty....but moving it far enough to line up for a right handed shooter would be quite an undertaking.

best regards,
tom

very nice looking gun but agree it has cast on, a lot

Looks very Webley 700 series based,very nice gun nontheless!

Gentlemen:

Thank you for your comments, and please pass along my appreciation to Malcolm Cruxton for his observations.

Perhaps more information about Charles Dawson will eventually come to light.

mbatten

Asking price $2350 CDN

Cast on. Also to me it looks restocked.

Is that cast for central vison? For a left handed person? Looks odd.

mbatten;

I have found your Charles Dawson (C.K. Dawson) and I think that he may be the famous Ken Dawson. Nigel Brown's "BRITISH GUNMAKERS" Vol two page 205 lists a C.K. Dawson at 10/11 St. Mary's Row Street, Birmingham, England until 1963, which was about the time I believe that the area was demolished to make way for the motor way. Brown also list C.K. Dawson at 55/56 Price Street, Birmingham from 1964 until 1971 and then from 1981 until 1988 at 14 Meadow Road, Aldridge, Walsall, Staffs. So maybe this person was Charles Kenneth Dawson. I am going to send another note over to Malcolm Cruxton and ask him if perhaps Ken Dawson first name was Charles and of course if the Ken Dawson he knew worked int Aldridge and at 55/56 Price Street which would be across the courtyard from Malcolm's old shop now demolished.

Here is a photo of the yard behind 10/11 St. Mary's Row from the Birmingham historical files.

http://epapers.bham.ac.uk/379/

Regards;
Stephen Howell

Thank you Stephen - this is most helpful and interesting indeed!

That is the same address that is engraved on the rib.

And thank you for posting the photo - it's remarkable what beautiful objects were created in these rather dreary places!

Cheers!

mbatten

Still looking for any information on DEWSON also. My 10-bore lightweight percussion double belonged to a cook at Teddy Roosevelt's ranch and was said by the cook to have been used on passenger pigeons in New York. V.M. Starr jug choked it for me and I shot many ducks with it.

Dear mbatten;

I am pleased to be able to confirm my hypothesis that C.K. (Charles Kenneth Dawson) was the maker of your BLE. The confirmation is from a email of today by George Malcolm Cruxton gunmaker of Price Street Birmingham (still working after more than 60 years in the trade) and he states this about Dawson who was known in the trade by his shortened middle name, Ken Dawson: "It is one in the same he used to work underneath me the other side of the yard where I am now."

I urge you to procure a copy of the small book by David Williams on the Birmingham gun trade and read the several pages related to the various gun firms that were in the premises of 10/11 St. Mary's Row. These buildings were built in the 1700's and demolished to make way for the motorway ring road through and around Birmingham in the 1960's. It is likely your gun was one of the very last ever built there. These premises were occupied by the Carr Brothers as well as William Ford and of course, the famous engraver Harry Morris.

I did not know Ken Dawson, but I have heard the late Birmingham gun tradesman Jack Rowe talk of him many times. It takes a great deal of skill and experience to be a master gun finisher like Ken Dawson was.

Kindest Regards;
Stephen Howell

Stephen:

Thank you very much for this update, and please do pass along my thanks to Mr. Cruxton, as well! I'll have a look for the Williams text that you recommend.

I'm very fortunate indeed to have acquired this gun, built by such a fine craftsman. Perhaps Mr. Morris did the engraving, too.

Sincerely,

Mark Batten
Vancouver Island

Interestingly Ken Dawson actually was a Stock maker , his customers included Purdey & Holland & Holland .
He retired from working about 12 years ago from his workshop which was at Birches Bridge , Wolverhampton (not too far from Aldridge ) his workshop was in the same yard as the very famous gunlock makers York & Wallin who were Purdey Lockmakers.

Salopian;

Is Ken Dawson still living? I think he would have been born about 1934. Do you know who might have been his gaffer?

Kindest Regards;
Stephen Howell

According to Ron Collings Ken Was apprenticed at Webley and Scott, before Ron's time. An Avid motorcyclist he rode a 1000cc Vincent to Work at W&S. Ron and him shared a yard in Price St and usually took lunch breaks together. Ron stated he was considered one of, if not the best stocker in England. He was noted for the style of his drop points. Regarding the source for the action I respectfully disagree that it was of W&S 700 heritage. The top lever spindle is to far back and lacks the "C" nut for a 700. It looks more to me like Greener lever work typically found on B'ham trade actions as made up by John Asbury and others. Many G.E.Lewis guns feature this action.

The stock easily bent back to about 3/16" of cast-off, which suggests that the stock was originally made for a right-handed shooter, and had been bent for a lefty sometime in the past.

Now, it fits me just right.

mbatten

Wonderful! Shoot it in good health, for many years to come.

Best,
Ted

ip, ip, jolly good...