doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com SxS falsehoods

SxS’s have no shortage of falsehoods regurgitated over the decades.

Most commonly one comes up during debates between O/U and SxS. It usually goes like this, “O/U are easier to shoot because they only have one sight plane!”. At that point images come to mind of the flaccid Elmer Fudd SxS with two beads at each barrel muzzle.

What others have you heard?

Long barrels shoot "harder". Well, maybe a little but progressive powders do fine in short barrels too...Geo

You must have short barrels if you hunt around brush or woods. A .410 is the perfect starter gun for a youngster. A 28 hits harder than a 20 or 12. Two triggers are too hard to learn.

Sighting plane problems solved!

A 'clean breech face' facilitates loading.

Sideclips cut your fingers.

A straight stock is so you can move your hand to get to the other trigger.

Shot patterns 'converge'.

Sixteen gauge kills like a 12 and kicks like a 20; oh wait, that one is true!...Geo

That must have been done by a trap shooter.

SXS shooters need a handicap because O/U's break more clays.

Now now, follow the rules!

I thought it was “carries like a 20 and kills like a 12”?

A fine double is the sign of a true gentleman...

Another:

SxS’s kick more than O/U!

They fail to mention their K80 weighs 9lbs and the one SxS they shot four times weighed 6.75lbs.

Or the ever prevalent “side by side kicks from side to side you can shoot the bottom barrel on an OU and have it kick straight back which allows you to acquire the second target with much more ease.” Argument.

I guess I’m not astute enough to observe this.

Well side by sides do kick, side to side. I use that to get my second shot off quicker. You shoot the barrel which will naturally move your barrels in the direction of the bird. I might be using the wrong barrel first but get my second shot off so quickly, the second shot stream often merges with the first, to create a wall of pellets birds can not get past. Makes my side by side almost into a light speed weapon. I’ll circle back with the fuzzy math when I leave my basement to walk the dog before he bites someone else.

Lloyd3,
I'm sorry but I tend to agree. I've met the finest/gentlemen hunters carrying sxs's, especially fine guns. I certainly don't judge anyone by their choice of shotgun, but I've found my observations certainly true.
Karl

Shooting at something too far off will "shackle" (loosen) your gun.

Sorry Aaron, but there really is a split second's difference with an O/U, getting on target for the second shot, when you shoot the bottom barrel first. That's the reason Perazzis that don't have a selective trigger are set up to shoot the bottom barrel first. Sometimes a split second's advantage is enough.

And, long barrels do shoot harder, further. A 32" gun will shoot harder 6 inches further than a 26" gun, all else equal.

"The field is the touchstone of the man" Capt. Paul A. Curtis- 1933

Slings on a double will contribute to putting it off-face quicker.

That's a good one, Aaron!

SxS shotguns point better in a woods....

That's a very perceptive response Lloyd. +1

This isn't stated as a falsehood ...........

Billy Perdue was a pigeon shooter extraordinaire. He was one of the few that still used a S X S, in his era, and enjoyed a good degree of success in the USA and abroad. He stated something to this effect: "Flyer shooting is a game of elevation, primarily. Two barrels (in the line of sight) gives a better reference of elevation than one barrel does." That is not a direct quote, but is what I remember of an interview with him many years ago. Paul might be able to better clarify, as he was a close friend of Billy's for many years.

I might add that decoyed ducks can be a situation where elevation adjustments are of great import, as well. I have had no small degree of success using S X Ss on decoyed ducks.

You should ease the shock of closing the barrels by braking the top lever with your thumb.

Actually I don’t know if this is false or true. I’ve heard both.

Let her send home.

Billy Perdue shot a Purdey pigeon gun. I will go with whatever he says.

A sxs will always shot low.

Karl: Fear not, my comment was a bit tongue-in-cheek. Was it O'Conner that specifically addressed that particular issue (can't remember now)? It has been my observation that if somebody has spent the time and money to secure a better-than-average bird gun to employ in his walks afield, he (or she I suppose) is fairly serious about the whole process. "Doing it right" would seem to be a component of that motivation and that would lead to, perhaps, more gentlemanly behavior?

Lloyd,
Absolutely! As I recall Gene Hill, Corey Ford, Burton Spiller among others also suggested it.
Karl

I can’t say in actual practice shooting clays and birds the theoretical advantage of an O/U allowing you to acquire and obliterate a second target quicker has ever presented itself. Just today I shot 5rnds of skeet using my full/full Greener Empire and five other accomplished shooters, all shooting target o/u models from Krieghoff and Kolar. I hung with the best shooter there, but with the quickest second shots on doubles. All breaks close together just on my side of the center stake. Obviously a lot of that comes from hold point, break point, timing, practice, reaction time, etc... While I used to shoot A LOT, I was never competitive. I don’t consider myself to be some shotgun prodigy. Nevertheless with my double trigger SxS, I wasn’t able to “catch” the supposed downfalls of a SxS.

Maybe a master class or Olympic level shooter doing international skeet?

For ME, the benefits you state above about an o/u I deem theoretical. I’ve shot plenty with o/u’s too.

if the barrels dont "ring", there is something defective with the solder joints...which may cause the barrels to become separated...

if top lever is to the left of center, the gun is unsafe to shoot...

For me, those times when the second shot has to be hurried have come on sporting clays courses, which is where 99% of my clay shooting takes place. It's not a sign of a good target setter to encounter a pair that have to be shot that quickly, but it happens from time to time. Sometimes the lighting changes enough on a station to cause the first bird to be hard to pick up, which in turn can cause you to have to rush the second shot.

I may be a bit more sensitive to the slowness to acquire the second target (or bird) than most, for whatever reason. I've mentioned it before, but I find the same principle to exist for me when using a straight grip gun with much of anything over 1 oz. of shot. The gun just moves around in my hands more than with a pistol grip. I just don't have as firm a level of control, which leads to a split second delay in getting on the second shot accurately. Same thing when I shoot the top barrel of an O/U first, I notice that "extra" movement of the barrels. I certainly don't consider myself a prodigy either, but I am a serious student of the shotgun, and relish the technicana surrounding them. I am by nature a competitive person, and over my lifetime of shooting sports I can recall dozens of matches/tournaments where one point, or one bird, has meant the difference in my finishing in HOA, or in "also ran". I thrill in the pursuit of perfection. That absolutely doesn't make me better, or "righter" than anyone who doesn't. I'm just wired that way.

The actual time difference is real, but how much most of us need that slight advantage to kill the bird is questionable. I agree that the benefits in actual use are slight, but I just can't put it in the column, under the heading, "fallacy".

Good thread, thanks for starting it! And, I always appreciate the wisdom of a craftsman, such as yourself, when it is shared here. I have so much to learn about these guns. Thanks for being a part of this forum.

Best to you, Stan

The other possibility is there is some level of placebo effect, I just enjoy shooting my SxS’s so much!

Actually, the reason the bottom barrel on an O/U normally fires first is because it is the barrel that is closest to the pivot point(hinge pin) and puts less stress on the action. Firing one shot is a much more common occurrence than doubles, so the stress doesn't even out over all. You can see this theory with O/U combination guns, that usually position the rifle barrel on the bottom. Of course there are exceptions, one being "low pressure" rifle cartridges( such as rimfire, 8x58R S&S, etc) and extremely strong actions( like some Brno models). As to whether double or single triggers are faster, I shoot double triggers and am never aware of which trigger I'm pulling, except when I want to use the tightest choke first.
Mike

Very good observation Mike. 100% correct.

If you look at the position of the hinge pin on a older BRNO it is high on the sides of the barrels.

You can see the hinge piin location high on the forward part of the frame.

Do I recall correctly that the front trigger on the BRNO fires the top barrel first?

Oskar,
That is precisely the model I had in mind, one of my hunting friends in Germany hunted with one in 7x57R/12 ga. The lockup is also very strong.

builder,
Oskar is better qualified to answer, but I think both triggers function as a single trigger, with the front trigger firing the top barrel then the bottom, and the rear trigger firing the bottom barrel then the top. If my memory of this is incorrect, I hope Oskar straightens me out.
Mike

Mine is set up like a standard O/U with the rear trigger firing the top barrel which I really like as I have small hands and it is much easier to shoot accurately with a more comfortable grip. Some of the BRNO's have from what I've been told one of the triggers acts like a singe trigger but you have two to be able to select which barrel goes off first, I've never seen one thought. I really like this BRNO, it is in 12ga/5.6x52R(22 Sav. HP), just perfect for coyotes. I load 55gr Buffalo Arms soft points and they are extremely accurate.



What is discerning is having a Bernardelli combo gun 12ga/5.6x50R Mag with the rifle barrel on the bottom but the same trigger set up, most of the time I shoot the BRNO so I'm used to it, more than once I've taken the Bernardelli out and dusted a coyote with BB's at 80+ yards pulling the wrong trigger.

The BRNO is my travel gun as I have a set of skeet barrels for it also. I just need to find a set of 28" shotgun barrel for it also.

Don't drink the SXS kool aid too fast.

Answer this.

Why then do o/u dominate every shotgun competition in every class/division? Dominates

There must be something to the O/Us advantage vs the SxS. If not, then the competitors would shoot a sxs or an auto

Because O/U’s only have one sight plane which makes them easier to shoot! Just kidding...


There’s more to shooting than competition, and I’d hardly think whats seen in competition applys to shooting outside competition. The answer to your question is probably a long one. Alas, I’m tired from walking 6 miles with my pre-mounted 8.5lb 32” barreled DT11. I need to dig my F1 car out, got stuck on the way afield again.

There most certainly is a reason why O/Us dominate the competitive shooting sports. It's because they excel at the competitive shotgun games. S X S devotees can ridicule the reasons given for why, but when "backed in a corner" the replies are always the same. "Well, I don't care if I give up a few birds." "I could care less about competition." "I'd rather have a picture of a S X S than own an O/U." However, none of the reasons address the issue, which is that O/Us dominate competitive shotgunning for a reason. They are superior for the purpose.

I had much rather shoot my S X Ss. I use them almost exclusively for doves, quail and ducks. I have as good a dove and quail gun as exists, IMO, in a 20 ga. Beretta 687 SPII Sporting. It has done the job perfectly on two trips to Argentina and took 8000 doves on those two trips. I've never seen a better dove gun for the money. But, I haven't shot it at doves for the last three seasons, preferring my S X Ss (mostly .410s). However, that doesn't change the fact that it is ultimately better suited to a high shell to dove ratio, or sub-gauge sporting clays competition, than is a S X S.

Some of us just have a hard time separating emotion, and sentimentality, from facts. They don't have to be at odds with each other. They can co-exist, and they do, in my realm.

I happen to have only a few O/U's , the two combo guns an O/U muzzle loading shotgun and my old International trap gun from the 1960/70's my true love are sxs, they take coyotes too.

Old drilling that I killed this one with the shotgun barrels and then shot a respectable round of trap with.

Here's mine: "They are unsafe and can blow up" The back story is, my boy's had their Boy Scout Troop Shoot and they of course shoot SxS's. We showed up and they uncased their guns. When the "Range Master" saw they had SxS's they were told they couldn't shoot them. I asked why and the fellow said these are "old fashioned guns that can blow up" I tried to explain that these are modern made and are perfectly safe. He still said they are unsafe and the boy's can't shoot them. So, they had to use a pump gun from one of their friends. I also brought one of my vintage guns with damascus bbls, when I pulled that one out, you would have thought I had Rona! Needless to say, I didn't shoot it.

The guns my boy's brought were a Browning BSS and an AyA Matador III.

Best,

Greg

The SxS barrels blot out my target. The barrels distract me.

You do realize that anyone who shoots a sxs is directly related to the Hatfields and Elmer Fudd. That is unless you wear a flat cap and then you’re just a pretentious snob. The boys with their Benelli blasters, masters of their little universe, wretch at the sight of a sxs as they wax poetically about the latest 3 15/16 oz supreme triple T pterodactyl loads. Those sxs shooters are just such smug little bastards with their lust for little gauges and antique guns. Be careful of them. They’re mostly old. Over 40 at least.

Agree it is a hunting carry vs golf cart ride thing. Horses for courses. There is no one shotgun for all scenarios. It is said to beware the man with one gun, I say bs because he just started shooting and only has one gun.

Some percussion guns were touted as "harder shooters" than centerfire breech loaders. Is that also a difference between side by sides and over unders ?

Double triggers are for shooting both barrels at the same time.

Yea, I agree. I filled my safe in 5 years. Time for a second safe!

Nice use of quotes around “Range Master”.

Late 20th century single trigger italian monoblocs are not authentic! Mine are mechanical. (12 & 20)

Hi y'all,

I hope I didn't stop this thread with what in hindsight could legitimately be construed as a troll. I wish I knew 15 years ago what I've learned on this forum. The club I belong to rarely sees SXSs so I've learned little there and usually shoot a target gun. On quail or rabbit hunts with friends or associates, I'm the quirky one with a sxs.
With what I know now, I'm thinking 10 or so years ago I was getting some pretty good deals at Cabelas and they always had several older guns I was scared to try. Some even had Damascus barrels. I still like my monoed single non selective beaver tailed guns!
Right now I'm putting the brakes on gun purchases. We'll see in a couple of years if I'll be able to own an antique fine double.

Following all of the interesting threads on this forum,
DB Crockett

In order to be effective, the SXS barrels need screw-in chokes and porting
Mike

And don't forget, Long Forcing Cones too!

"This is the last Side by Side I'm ever going to buy"

Hey, don't forget the adjustable comb with the piston type adjustable recoil pad! Can't imagine what all the suggestions on a fine SxS would look like. Probably like "death eating a cracker"!
Karl

It only takes a couple days for Cabelas to send purchased SxS from Ohio to Wisconsin....yea right.... .....