doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Need help with the year & model of my Charles Daly

I bought this about 25 years ago at a garage sale for 45 bucks. It was pretty rusty the hammer in the firing pins were frozen solid. When I first got it I took the receiver apart and sanded and polished all the rust off and got the hammer mechanisms moving and working for you along with the firing pins. It was missing a hammer and looks like it was well used and banged around. I looked for original looking matching replacement hammers for decades and gave up. I have a body I grew up with that�s a gunsmith I sent it home with him two years ago and he just brought it back last week when he came down to hunt. I bought a pair of hammers from Dixie gun works and he installed them for me. I think the hammers were 63 bucks at the time and he does my work for free. When he brought it back we went to the range with the RST number 5 shells I bought for turkey hunting to try. It shot great! I have since made a fake Parkerizing patina look on the receiver so it doesn�t look knew compared to the rest of the gun. The only markings I can find on it are 396 on the barrel and receiver, 65 on the right side barrel, FB on the barrel land receiver lug. Also 96 on a few small parts. From what I�ve read on old posts here Charles Daly started importing shotguns in 1875 to the United States? ...and then I read that even though they imported them in 1875 the shotguns could even be older for some reason? I would assume my shotgun is a base model? I also read here that the guns were approx a 100 a year into the US? I�d so does that make mine a 1878? West model is it?

Thanks for any info.

Could you pleasure us with a few images of the sides of the frame & the barrel flats?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Hello Tripplebeards
and welcome on your first posting.

Any addresses on the barrel rib?

Any of the following marks on the flats of the barrels?

http://www.shotguns.se/html/uk.html

PLEASE post a photo of the Charles Daly marking

Mike

>>.....And here's what I guess: Daly was sourcing components or parts kits from W&C Scott of Birmingham until late 1870 or 1871 when he established his "factory" in Suhl, which was just having Georg Lindner to subcontract the work using components sourced from W&C Scott. Prior to that he may have been having the work performed by American craftsmen like Golcher & Overbaugh but the marks on those pre-1870/1871, or lack thereof, may answer the question of effort sourcing. Or, he may have been having William & Charles Scott manufacture his wares. Joe Wood may have a Daly Gun that is the missing link......<<


https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubb...true#Post236261
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=147174&page=all

So the subject longarm could date to the mid 1870s, but it depends whether it was made from leftover William & Charles Scott components.

I did notice that on the W&C Scott - Lindner - Charles Daly of which I am a custodian that it wears the Sauer >>Imperial Eagle<< process mark on the flats.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

This might help
http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/20948056

If you could post a full size close up of the barrel where the contrast is most apparent (possibly under the FE), I'll read the damascus pattern for you.

Is it a 12 or 10 gauge? What Turkey loads are you using? Did your gunsmith friend measure the chamber length and wall thickness?

I own an early Charles Daly whose components were sourced from Scott and assembled in Prussia (best guess). I would imagine the barrels were finished and actioned to the receiver in the Scott factory. Also the bar action locks were probably fitted to the action in England. Has Scott serial numbers all over it, 15,251. Oddest thing about it (to me) is the barrel ribs are brazed, not soldered. Do post some photos and we will all try to help.

https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=587163#Post587163

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Sorry double posted apparently. Ellenbr posted the link above with a bunch of photos. There is a BR stamped on it but no crown or anything fancy around or next to it.













With the non original hammers...







It�s a 2 7/8� 10 gauge. I�m using RST lite 1 1/4 oz smokeless shotgun ammo... black powder equivalent lead shot loads. It was inspected for safety from my smith before him and myself fired it.

Just from the images it looks to be an >>ER<< or >>EB<<. This example would have been sourced thru Georg Lindner before H.A. Lindner hung out his gunmaking shingle in 1874. And it look to be an inland Suhl, Germany example & not from components from W&C Scott.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

I noticed only 2 pins in the receiver before the hammer where most I see most have three or 4 in the same place. I read on an old post somewhere on this forum that approx a 100 were imported per year? If so I�m guessing this gun was made in 1878? But if it was made by George it would have to made earlier than 1878?

Yes, earlier than 1874. There may have been 3 serial number sequences. 1 for Georg as a subcontractor to S,D&G. 1 for H.A. Lindner pre-1891(or when he was forced to replace his >>Crown<< stamp w/ his >>HAL<< stamp and 1 for post >>Crown over Crossed Sidearms<<.

I do not think we are sure that H.A. continued Georg's serial numbers or not?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

So since it is not made from a W&C Scott parts kit & it doesn't wear the Quality Control Stamp(QCS) of H.A. Lindner, then it falls in between. I would say for sure pre-1874.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Can you view the initials with a magnifying glass and see if they are >>E.R.<<, >>E.B.<< or >>E.E.<<, which if true would put it in 1876 as that is when Emil Eckoldt hung out his gunmaking shingle.


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

I zoomed in on my pictures...

Good eye on the >>FB<< on the lug. But I was referring to the initials across from the >>65<< just forward of the flats.



Cheers,

Raimey
rse

I�m not at home. I�ll look tomorrow and post a pic. Thanks for all the help! I noticed those initials in the photos I posted and never noticed it looking at it prior. It�s going to eat at me till I get at home to see what it is.lol

I zoomed up on the same photo and it looks like E R...

It�s definitely stamped E R. I also took a complete photos of the wood forearm.

Does E R tell what year it is?









I took it out today to try and call in a winter turkey. All I saw were deer and squirrels. Maybe tomorrow I�ll harvest something with it.

The Suhl mechanic's initials >>E.R.<< just adds another layer of complexity as right off, I know not who that might have been bu I will look. More than likely >>E.R.<< hung out his gunmaking shingle close to the time of Georg Lindner?


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Some possibilities are(if any were active):

Emil Recknagel

Emil or Ernst Reinhardt

Ernst Russ of Zella - Mehlis

Ernst Ruck(if he was actually active)


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

I looked for contemporaries for Georg Lindner & found the following in a 1846 Suhl listing, but no >>ER<< mechanics were listed:

Andreas Reinhardt

Nicolaus Rei�

Johann Heinrich Rittelbach

Georg Christ. R�ll

Stephan Gabriel Rosch

Christian Rosenthal

Gottlieb Hermann Rud(?)

As a sidenote, there was an August Rempt, listed as a Klempnermeister but I am not sure if he made tubes are not?

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Thanks for looking. Guess my shotgun production year and where is came from is still a mystery.

Band it between 1862 & 1874:

>>All right, here's what my Magic 8 Ball says. But before that let me recap a bit. Schoverling & Daly was founded in either 1862 or most give 1865. In 1868 Friedrich Wiebusch was listed as a silent or special partner and he expired in 1893, 2 years after August Schoverling. I'm fairly confident that Friedrich Wiebusch was founding partner in Wiebusch & Hilger(Hilger & Co. founded in 1848??) which arrived on the scene around 1876 and continued till say 1928. After Friedrich Wiebusch expired, Charles Frederick Wiebusch, William S. Hilger & M. Taussig were at the helm and were mainly blade peddlers. In 1892, about the time they were listed as the sole Sauer agents, they were in a tiff with the U.S. of A. over bowie knives, which they considered to be sidearms but the government didn't see it that way & they lost. The seem to have drug in some Belgian arms also and all appears to have left port at Antwerp. Getting back on track, in 1869/1870 Schoverling & Daly advertised as being an agent of William Powell & Sons and the scattergun in the advert looks to have the lifter action but the verbiage is as follows:
"4 systems - Lever Under Guard Double Grip, Side Snap, Top Snap Double Bolt & New Triple Fastening" and I am pleased to see
B. Jacob of Selma, Alabama as an agent. I think it was in 1871 or 1877 as I've gotten my dates crossed but surely in the 1870s, SD&G had a satellite office at No. 65 Weaman Street, Birmingham and that seems to be the address of Tolley. Schoverling & Daly were involved in several import/retail houses and just like the tale that Charles Daly spun on the stand in the early 1890s(A. Schovering possibly would have been in the hot seat but he was on holiday in Germany where he expired) it seems that components were being imported as follows as all along with others were listed as agents of Schoverling & Daly:
Tubes to William R. Schaefer was located 61 Elm Street, Boston, Massachusetts.....<<


https://doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=236153&page=15

Serbus,


Raimey
rse

Great Great Grandfather Archibald Tyson's modest accommodations in Lowndesboro, Alabama (between Selma and Montgomery) 1858..still stands. Wonder if he bought one of those from Jacob "after the war."


Today:

It appears to have a Deeley forend fastener - an 1873 patent.

Yes Steve. Good eye as it escaped mine for a time. So Deeley & Edge forend fastner Nr. 1422 of 1873:



https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=430233&page=1

Now band it between 1873 & 1874 since it is devoid of any H.A. Lindner Hallmarks. That is unless Georg had to scrub one off on his own to fill an order?


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Argo44:

With a house like that, he had to have one in every corner? Bet he had full time window washers......


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

It’s definitely a Deeley latch! What does the “1422” mean in front of the year 1873?

https://www.gunsinternational.com/g...aly-12-ga-hammergun.cfm?gun_id=101588136






A very kind member forwarded a link to Charles Daly Nr. 169 and as I was uploading the image of the components I noticed a tab on the right side of the toplever? Any ideas? My intent was to post an image of the >>V<<s forward of the flats on the tubes near the lower rib. I was going to see about @ what serial number the switch was made to Deeley & Edge forend fastner.



Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Subject Daly Nr. 396





Daly Nr. 169 with odd tap to the right of toplever utilizing a Westley Richards Doll's Head(Nr. 2506 of 1862) variant.


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Cropped image showing tab....



Serbus,


Raimey
rse

So indeed a Westley Richards Doll's Head Extension Toplever????


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Might have anyone seen this type >>tab<< prior; even on a WR? Is it a stop?


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

I gave my rusty old barrel a vinegar bath over night and sanded it with 320 and 400 grit sandpaper. I then put a coat of Oxpho blue on the barrels and buffed off the top coat off with 600 grit sandpaper till the only bluing that was left was in the domascus lines. I then wiped it down with Lind seed oil. You should have seen all the rust that came off of the barrels when I wet sanded it after an hour of soaking in vinegar. I used a 4’ 3” PVC tube caped off on one end for the vinegar bath. I think it turned out nice. You can see the domascus pattern clearly now with all the dark blotchy rust spots removed. Sure looks a lot better to me!




A faux case hardened the receiver with Oxpho blue...




Before....after I cleaned and polished the solid rusted receiver, had new hammers installed, but left the barrel as is.




I’m stripping the wood as we speak and steaming out dents.

I removed 99.9% of the dings, scratches, and dents. I am on coat #4 of BLO. It’s starting to darken back up. It’s no where near perfect but looks a million times better then before IMO. There were a few deep scratches and dings I couldn’t remove but feel completely smooth to the touch now. I like have a dew imperfections left in the wood so it still looks old and vintage. I filled in the deep gouge marks that someone probably made with a screw driver to remove the side plates at one time. Figured a few dark scratch marks left in it would give it some character. I removed some of fake case hardening look I made with Oxpho blue on the receiver as well. Any idea what kind of wood this is? This is bad picture and doesn't do the wood justice. The long dark marks running up and down the butt stock reminds me of tiger maple.

Well, it’s been a few years since I’ve been on here and posted. I didn’t even remember I was a member here sorry….lol.

Here’s an update from the following season the first day I took it out in the woods. I shot a double bearded gobbler with a hand load. I used a cut down modern hull. Used 100 grains of FG, a 1/2” pressure wad, 1 5/8 oz of BPI nickel plated shot, and roll crimped with an OS card.









It definitely got the job done. I’m gonna go through and modify my proven load and add a plastic shot cup in the mix with some buffer and see if it helps out with tightening patterns.

One more picture I forgot to post instead of adding it to above. I figured I would just tack it on. After I rubbed it down with boiled linseed oil, a bunch of times to get it soaked really good I added quite a few coats of minwax antique finish. Gave it a nice satin finish. Wanted some type of protection over the top of it.

So here’s something new after all these years.




I just watched a YouTube video talking about a double gun and showing marks on it. Obviously there’s not enough marking on mine really tell me much. The YouTuber was talking about his 28 gauge that had a “28-70” stampeded on the receiver. He said the 70 was mm and the equivalent in inches was 2 3/4 inches for shells. Well, I have a number 65 stamped on my underside of my barrels which if I went by this logic it would tell me it’s a 2.5 inch chamber and not a 2 7/8” chamber??? Back in the 90s. I had a gun Smith measure my chamber and told me it was 2 7/8” 10 gauge. I have shot RST shells 2 7/8” in it with no problems. Drops right into the chamber and shuts fine. Wondering if maybe somebody had it bored out to 2 7/8” or if there’s just enough free play in the chamber that they fit???? Does this make sense to anybody here that can chime in and tell me if that’s what the 65 stands for? Actually 65 mm is equivalent to 2.55906” so I’m guessing a 2.5” chamber…with a lot of free bore since 2 7/8” shells fit and fire with out issues. When I do my hand loads and roll crimp them I know they’re even shorter than 2.58 inches. Most of my hand loads are 2.58 to 2 1/2. I’ve shot a few boxes of RST shells through them that are 2 7/8 with zero issues so I’m kind of confused with that stamping now.

That wood really came out beautiful! Great job getting all those dents and dings out . And you did a fantastic job on the rest of the gun. Amazing talent!

I need to find another project gun now.

Well, I learned something new the last couple of days with that number 65 stamped on the barrel saying it’s the chamber length! Decades ago I had the chamber measured by a gunsmith in town that told me it was a 2 7/8 inch 10 gauge chamber. A 2 7/8 inch RST shell drops right in the chamber and I’ve shot probably 30 of them without issue. After seeing that number 65 and listening to a YouTuber saying that’s the millimeter measurement in chamber size made me scratch my head because that comes out to 2.559 inches. I measured to the forcing cone today several times and came up with 2.775” on average. Well, I would assume that is with a 2 5/8 inch hole or 2 1/2 inch hole unfolded??? Explains why I never got a good pattern with the three boxes of two and 7/8 inch shells. It taught me how to get into 10 gauge shotgun reloading anyways because I’ve used those holes several times and they’re cut down probably a half inch shorter so they never came close to the forcing cones with my roll crimping. I have basically 2 boxes total of impossible to find 2 7/8” lead #5’s and #6’s. Thirteen 5’s and 6 #6’s. I sure would hate to tear those things down and just to reload them. I’m probably better off selling them out right or horse trading them for ammo I can use.