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Joined: Nov 2005
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Nov 2005
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From Greener, page 143  I am not making the claim that Greener is correct. Obviously, he was limited to the sources he had available, as we all are. He is one more source to consider. I do not have a good source for British patents. Certainly a good search there would be worthwhile. OWD, above, gives WR a 1858 patent date. Pete
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,856 Likes: 15
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,856 Likes: 15 |
My date came fro Crudgington & Baker's book The British Shotgun, Volume 1.
They mention a Mathews, but they don't attribute the toplever to him.
Does anyone know if Scott used their spindle with another locking bolt before they hooked up with Purdey's?
And did Purdey make any toplever guns without the Scott spindle?
I guess I'll have to do some research to come up with the answers.
OWD
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Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,096
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,096 |
  I don't know if this Mathews may have added to the confusion...but there is no question tha WR was there by 1865...my guess is that this Mathews was the patent barrister
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 527
Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 527 |
The Matthews of concern in this instance has 2ts, so not likely the barrister referred to here in RC's example. Here is the question, why would Bonehill add the name Matthews in naming a particular model of one of his guns? Matthews must have contributed something considerable to this particular model, in this case an "opening top lever cocker". I just "assumed" that Matthews the inventor? of the top lever opening/locking system was reason for the 2 names - could easily be something else. Perhaps further searching will reveal the connection. All contributions to the quest are/will be appreciated. --- John Can.
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 15,462 Likes: 89
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 15,462 Likes: 89 |
I've handled a 'top lever cocker'. Are they fairly rare ? How many years was this system used ?
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 12,743
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 12,743 |
Joe;
I have not learned how to search for British patents. If someone can clue us in on this would be most oblidged. The patent Mr Crawford gave me for Matthews is # 2441 of 1863. I simply had no reason to doubt either the date or the patentee. I had sent Mr Crawford pictures of the gun, so he knew what the lever looked like when he said it was a Matthews patent. This gun also has the customers name engraved upon the rib & Louisville KY. I purchased it from a Louisville collector who had tried to research the name in Louisville. All he was ever able to find was he had a buisness license for a jewlery store within the time frame this gun was built. Nothing about it rings a "Wrong Bell". I am pure & simply convinced Purdey "Did Not" build the first double to utilize a top lever with a sliding underbolt. Who did I do not know, but have seen nothing to indicate Purdey was using a top lever as early as this gun.
Miller/TN
I Didn't Say Everything I Said, Yogi Berra
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 6,881
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 6,881 |
MP Sadly Deceased as of 2/17/2014
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Posts: 1,544
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Oct 2006
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I just bought a Westley Richards built with the original patent. I see five or six a year - on guns frm 20-bore to 8-bore!
The one I have is a 12-bore with black-powder proof and it is nice and tight - and shoots solidly with little flexing.
The top-lever of Westley Richards dates from 1858 but on certre-fires around 1863 seems to be the earliest I have seen examples.
The Purdey bolt came in in 1863 and the Scott spindle in 1865. Purdey bolts were first used with his first-patent thumbhole lever.
Later Westley Richards guns had both WR top-lever with bolt and Scott spindle and Purdey bolts.
Combintation sof Purdey bolts and scott-spindle operated via atop-lever emerge from 1865.
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 15,462 Likes: 89
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 15,462 Likes: 89 |
Later in Macdonald Hastings book along with a picture of the Purdey it states.
"In 1870-the date is arguable- Purdey introduced this double-barreled 12 bore pinfire gun. It's importance is that this seems to be the earliest model showing the top lever and sliding bolt action which is basically the Purdey gun today. Collectors should be very carefull in assigning diffinitive years to improvements. The Purdey action is incorporated in a later patent (no.397 of January 1878) and described again in Beesley's patent of 1880".
I took this as saying Purdey made the succesful model that has survived today. To me first doesn't matter it's the guy that perfected something....all those other designs fell to the way side The Purdey bolt action (top lever double under bolt) has survived. Would it be fair to say "the son of Purdey the first was the first to perfect the top lever and double under bolt".
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 15,462 Likes: 89
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 15,462 Likes: 89 |
Sb the Purdey bolt of 1863 used with his first-patent thumbhole lever was only a single locking bolt...was it not ?
I've saw those types for sale and I'm trying to avoid the temptation to buy one as a shooter....not much holding things together.
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