doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Medic AID expansion in MI (ot)

The Supreme Court of the United States will begin hearings on the affordable care act, some states adopted the Medicaid expansion, and some did not. MI did.
Craigd asked my thoughts on it, I started an OT thread that might illustrate my experience and understanding of it.

Medicaid expansion Picks up The people that are in the zone That Isn't met well by the lowest wrungs of the ACA.

Working poor, people changing jobs, Covid disrupted businesses, not necessarily only the poorest people. And not just women and children.

The income constraints that represent the Medicaid expansion extend subsidized coverage up AND down to cover the people falling down the income ladder away from employer provided coverage.

So, Medicaid expansion casts a broader net.

My experience is only vicarious, as I have multiple layers of Cadillac level health insurance, and am too young to benefit from Medicare. But I have a huge community network, and I ask questions and listen to people.

What I see in practice is a financial buffering effect on the households that slip from employer provided insurance down to self provided coverage.
Every county in MI has a few providers, all working to meet ACA requirements profitably.
I see the rise of healthcare conglomerates in every urban center, regionally, and nationally.

It seems to provide access, and most importantly, improve the health of the people that fall into the formerly unaddressed income bands.

I have seen 1st hand People Improving their management of chronic illness People that were previously destined to unproductive lives.

My position, is that a person with a chronic illness that needs to be managed, is a wasted asset if the means are unavailable to do so.
I do not want to carry the social cost and financial cost of wasted assets.

I choose to support the ACA because as a nation, I believe we are better off if our general health is not a "How much money is in my pocket today?" concern, but rather just a daily thing that everyone uses and benefits from.

In my view, no kid should have their teeth pulled out, no diabetic have their legs cut off, etc. etc.

On a per capita basis, I'm comfortable with the national cost of shoring up the bottom of the ACA.

Do you support AOC? I see a trend in your thoughts.

bill

No
But I don't think being poor is a sin either.

I have traveled a great deal in countries that have a different tax structure than ours, and their citizens are healthier and consistently surprised that we don't make basic healthcare available to everyone.

The Dutch choose from a variety of private plans as example. They just require everyone to be in one.

This thread, other than the SCOTUS element, needn't be political.

Craigd asked how it worked in practice.
I presume he's in a state that didn't broaden the net.

Actually, thanks for the follow up. I was hoping for input from participants, not the infomercial?

I suspect many of us have our own Chevy plans, a few have those Cadillac plans. I suspect, as in the past, when we discuss the real world implications of aca expansion of Medicaid, few of us realize the benefits. Maybe, biden care will address the shortcomings, would you care to invest in a small wager?

I don't think learning and relaying what I see everyday is infomercialling.
My view of people as productive vs unproductive assets contributing by paying their income taxes to the national common good, is at odds with many that don't pay any. They don't pay taxes, yet condemn investing in those that want to.
Health is like changing oil, or fitting new shovel handles.

I think how SCOTUS deliberates this case will be quite insightful.

I fully believe there will be tremendous social pressure brought to bear if the decision is to end the ACA.

And I would extend pre-runoff pity to the poor folk of Georgia that have to endure more electioneering after a decision.

I would wager a beer that Georgia would see great senatorial change if the ACA is overturned.

CZ, Thank you for informed and humane input here. You do your part to end the war on truth.

You wasting your time. thrifty is not interested in discussing the effects of the ACA, only wants to needle, hence the infomercial remark.

Bill, it may be because I travel. Or that Catholicism demands social justice.
Bird hunting takes you to many places where people don't have much.
I just think not helping someone when you can is bad.

I want everyone to work.
I want everyone to pay income tax.

I have �discussed� this ad nauseam with rm Bill. Are you a physician in public health? I don�t think Bill is?

The Medicaid system is broken and biden care is not advocating for solutions. Health is not a discussion among elites, or court cases. My observations have been that without skin in the game, recipient value healthcare in the same way that they value other free things.

How can you measure productivity in terms of income tax contribution when a taxable income is generally a barrier to receiving Medicaid benefits? What does it run in Michigan, across the country, failure to show for a Medicaid health appoint runs around forty percent? Does your same Medicaid system advocate to decriminalize illegal drug use, and then lobby for funding to treat substance abuse and addiction as a medical problem?

Is this your concept of a healthier, more productive US of A? On the average, if a generic person does not follow up with their generic health appointments forty percent of the time, do you want that percentage of commitment from the person that changes the oil for your Cadillac?

As with Bill many times in the past, I hope you can accept my objection to lumping people that fall below some income line on a chart as sinners or some other second class citizens.

I too, and I�ve mentioned it before, was raised Catholic, and even attended some parochial schooling. On a personal note, the days of the head down hard working Catholic concerned about their neighbor is fading fast. The pope says Catholicism is now for social justice activism. Not for me, my wife happens to be of a Protestant denomination and that�s where our truth lies.

CZ, I choose my words as I do, just as you do with yours. I hold no character judgement against you for being forced to associate with a screen name such as an nca, but it is also not lost on me that you both vote in lock step.

In a world where the choices are binary, there is a whole lot of latitude on either side of center

Don�t ever think that I�m not fiscally conservative or that I believe in guaranteed incomes guaranteed outcomes or a life without risk.

My world works best when there is order. When there is a plan.
I want everyone to be a taxpayer and I want our tax code revised, to better reflect what income actually is.

I don�t want healthy functional Americans devalued due to lack of access to basic healthcare.

I would prefer that access to primary care was so normal, that no Americans even had toThink about it.

We consider schools to be a public good. I don�t understand why we don�t see a healthy populace that way. I think it�s more valuable.

Reagan used to say, that we really didn�t need more tax laws, we needed better compliance with the ones we have. And then later in the Clinton administration a rising economy brought a balanced budget due to rising revenue and constraint on spending growth.

People have either forgotten the first part, or have completely chosen to disregard the second part, and I don�t like what I�ve been seeing on the spending side of things.
But as long as the people at the top are getting theirs, nobody seems to care anymore.

Craig, The conviction that folks who pay little or no taxes take undue advantage of publically funded health care is destroyed utterly by their health metrics. Your position is nothing but the consequence of conservaturd resentment at being taxed for anything you and they don't personally benefit from.

Alrighty.

CZ, I believe some substantive component was lost, but I don�t mind. It could be obvious though that getting what we want is not always going to happen. For instance, I suspect you are both relieved and grateful, that you don�t find yourself thinking about using a public health clinic for your needs and wants. I did mention skin in the game, because I believe all people should apply some thinking to the healthcare that best fits their situation, not entitlement to ease.

Funny you should mention access to care, and then bill chimes in. He knows that many recipients of Montana�s Indian health services health care get compensation for travel expenses. Do you think they are thinking of efficiency and from an appreciative point of view. Or, do they want a referral hundreds of miles away, so the whole gang can load up and spend the day shopping when jr gets his well child check up?

On a hunt and out on the road, I honestly do appreciate the waitress in the diner and cashier at the convenience store, some more than others. And, I firmly believe they should have access to healthcare, but not in the chaotic manner that Obama threw money at feel good projects, and biden wants to perpetuate.

If you are a business minded person who values some order and accountability, you would be appalled. Just ask bill for an honest assessment.

Irrelevant, because we won't see the SCOTUS decision until next summer.

Even without expansion, the ACA is not sustainable from an actuarial standpoint. If it is to continue, even in its present form, tax increases will be required. Biden is inclined to make that happen. Medicaid and the ACA are two distinctly different kettles of fish, different economics, different philosophic and political perspectives, different regulatory structure. If you want to see what Medicaid expansion really looks like, examine MediCal in California. It is a giant sinkhole for tax dollars. The health care system in this country was broken before Obama changed it. It is still broken, just in different ways. I'll give Obama credit for trying to do something. I'll blame him for blowing the opportunity.

What brand of beer? Warsteiner

And as a Catholic as well, I want the SCOTUS big-9 to shit-can the Rove V Wade disaster. With the last two confirmed Justices being Catholic, perhaps that will get it done--as Anton Scalia would have wished-- RWTF

How can this discussion not be political?

Democrats who voted in Obamacare took my health insurance away. That policy was likely a Yugo policy, but, I could afford it, $2600 or so, a year, and it worked for my little tribe. Since my employer had less than 50 employees, when he was informed that it didn�t meet the democrats standards, he simply got rid of it. You are now on your own. It didn�t meet the minimum standards for neonatal and well baby care. My wife, and I, both in our 50s, didn�t need that, but, that didn�t matter.

After trying to get ahold of MinSure, to buy a policy from them for about 6 weeks, literally days on end of being on hold, and no returned emails, I got through. I told them I lost my insurance and needed a policy. OK, 20 minutes in, I have a line on another Yugo policy, new price is $600 a month. State perfunctory asks me do I have a wife that works? Yes. Does she have access to a family policy? Well, yea, but, it is $30,000 a year, and has a $10,000 deductible. You can�t but a MinSure policy if you have access to anything else. Tough shit. End of story, she hangs up on me.

For a year, my wife worked 160 hours a month, for that policy, and $90 in wages a month. Frosting on the cake is I�m a criminal if I don�t buy it. I found an employer after a year that had a successful small printing company, He beat my former wage by a buck or two, and allowed $2100 a month for health insurance. Where he got that money from, I haven�t a clue, but, he owned everything, and had been in place as a family shop for 50 years. About $250 a month on top of what he allowed got me another Yugo policy.

Did I mention we could have really, really used the $30K the new policy cost a year?

When a democrat shows up at my door, the first thing I ask is if they support socialized medicine, and the disaster that is Obamacare. To a one, they say yes (lockstep thinking on the left) and then I give them this story, and inform them the only reason they will leave my property under their own power is because it is against the law for me to kill them. I tell them they are thieves, and they stole food from my child�s mouth, clothes off his back, and caused this family hardship and suffering.

Given the chance, I�ll extract revenge. Now, get out of here. Word must have gotten out. None showed up this year.

Europeans who crow about how wonderful the health care system is have generally never had to use it. People with a disorder like cancer will often give you an earful about endless waits and rationed care. I�m pretty sure it was (not positive, but, it was an Englishman who lived here and worked on guns) Kirk Merrington who told me, at his age, in England, his leukemia would not have been treated with the state insurance program, and he thanked his stars he was here, and not there.

Best,
Ted

Ted, Your personal story is unfortunate, but it is not universal. I can't say I blame you for being bitter. At this same time though over 20 million Americans have health insurance under the ACA. Insurance companies, and Republicans, now understand that they cannot refuse care for pre-existing conditions. Trump has promised for 5 years to replace it with ???? There is no Republican alterative, and the reason is that, under current circumstances, there is no other way to fund health care for all Americans. As for Europeans feeling unhappy with their systems, their national health statistics prove those systems work better for their people than ours does for us. Even Trump was surprised at how hard it is to devise another approach. It's high time in this country to drop health care as a political issue and reframe it as a n ational obligation, a citizen's right to basic service and not a commodity for sale to any who can simply write a check.

Foxy, do you remember that little thing about separation of church and state? Since when does a single religion get to dictate morality to all Americans? Dunno about you, but I for one disapprove of raping little boys.

It is one example of many, but did you notice that yesterday ny governor cuomo said that it was unfortunate that a covid vaccine is coming out two months early because the Trump administration will be credited with distributing it? How many American lives would be lost by people such as yourself wanting to play politics with a two month delay on a ninety plus percent effective vaccine?

Did President Trump have pelosi's luxury of saying, if you want to read what's in the aca, you have to pass it? Was it the very same nancy that was responsible for blocking legislative changes to law that could have fixed problems with the aca? As you know the obama/biden administration tried to fix the rushed through law with many more than a hundred executive actions?

How could time have been set aside for changing the US Constitution to add the right of health care, when pelosi set aside three of the less than last four years to battle an existential threat to our democracy? Back to the corona virus vaccine, even fauci said he trusts the Pfizer scientists and the FDA, does that make him your enemy?

What I don�t grasp is why so many liberals can�t grasp that your �rights� end at the point someone gives something up for you. Being free to buy a health insurance policy is different then being forced into a system that forces others to pay for it.

There is no constitutional provision for health care being a right, and it being a right for others to pay for it for you.

Best,
Ted

Great response Ted. But rocky mtn bill and ClapperZapper simply aren't interested in reality or the truth.

I've asked Billy numerous times to explain why the so-called universal coverage of ObamaCare left 38 MILLION PEOPLE without coverage.

I've asked Billy numerous times to explain Obama's promise to reduce costs, when we actually saw massive double digit percentage cost increases. Your true story of the huge costs and huge deductibles for sub-standard coverage mirrors the stories of many people I know who lost employer paid coverage, and were forced to buy garbage they could barely afford... and then couldn't afford to use it anyway because of the deductibles and co-pays.

I'm glad Billy mentioned making health care a national right. There is a LEGAL PROCESS to do that called a Constitutional Amendment. Remember, John Roberts and the Liberal wing slipped ObamaCare through by determining that it was a tax. So much for Obama's promise to not raise taxes on anyone making less than $250,000 a year.

I'm also glad that ClapperZapper mentioned that being a Catholic demands social justice. Well, it also demands respect for unborn babies, but we obviously see him supporting those who legalized abortion, and even force taxpayers to fund the killing of babies.

I lost my job and my health care benefits in 2015 when oil prices collapsed. I did not expect ClapperZapper, rocky mtn bill, or the transgender idiot nca225 to bail me out by paying higher taxes. I went out and got a better job with benefits... just like I have done several other times when my job got outsourced or offshored due to the insane trade deals that Trump was finally fixing.

I support helping the truly disabled, but I do not support forcing taxpayers to support able-bodied people who refuse to take advantage of existing public-funded education opportunities and are too lazy to look for work. They should be doing the work that illegals from Central America and Mexico travel thousands of miles to do. I do not see how it is cold-hearted or un-Christian to feel that way. But it is a form of slavery and theft to expect me to work many hours of my finite life to pay tax dollars to support lazy leeches.

Ask me about a 35 year old girl I know who was forced out of her job because she has frequent grand-mal epileptic seizures, and was denied unemployment benefits. In addition, she has been shot down several times for Social Security Disability because the judge determines she can still work... even though she is not allowed to have a driver's license and is prone to frequent severe seizures that have left her with a lacerated tongue and broken bones. Many of her seizures happen in the shower or bathroom for some reason, and there are hard porcelain objects to crash down into. Then ask me about her step-brother who gets full Social Security Disability because he is a heroin addict who is too damn lazy and irresponsible to work. Then ask me about a former co-worker who also got full Social Security Disability because he allowed himself to get too damn fat to do anything.

We have lots of problems. Biggest problem is that Liberal Democrats always seem to make things worse and more expensive. And that doesn't even touch on their Unconstitutional infringements upon the 2nd Amendment Rights of law abiding citizens... which is about as close as this off-topic Thread will get to the subject of guns.

Is it time for censorship yet?

Talk about censorship...

Under a Donald Trump advertisement/thread on FacebOOk....

Donald Trump was talking about how they had the goods on the people that were behind all the cheating in this election....

I replied "Hang'um high".

Within seconds my screen flashed red...and I was reading "You have been banned for 30 days"

Who gives a dang...I just went and deleted my Facebook account.

Screw them Socialist/Nazi/Fascists censors.

Everyone who has had enough of Facebook and Twitter censorship should check out Parler. In partnership with Dan Bongino, it is a new social media site that does not censor based upon political affiliation. It had so many new members, that are leaving the other two I mentioned, that it temporarily crashed a couple days ago. I predict it will become a force to be reckoned with, because instead of stepping on the rights of free people it upholds them.

https://parler.com/auth/access

SRH

Ted & Keith: Republicans always talk a good game about our rights, but they're strangely silent about responsibilities. In my book there are no rights that don't entail obligations. Republicans also have lost entirely any concept of the common good. They actively work for a society where it's every man for himself, where each us us is free to do whatever we please and never mind the consequences. In an over-crowded world, we have long since passed the point where we can pretend we have no sacrifice to make even as a simple reqiurement of survival, let alone the need to promote the health and well-being of all citizens. PS: Craig your vicious comment about INdian health service is a racist low point for you. Maybe you forgot that reservations aren't centers of advanced medical treatment. If Gramma has to travel from Wolf Point to Billings for chemo- therapy, let her take the Greyhound, right? What a sorry, pissant resentment.

It always boils down to taxes. Oh you poor victims having to keep up your part of the social contract.

I think a good trade off is that if an individual doesn't not want to pay 100% percent of their tax responsibility then why should that individual get the benefit of the protections that those taxes pay for? If your in it for yourself, then you go by yourself. How's that for a solution?

If we follow the science, there is clear proof of an exodus from the stifling taxes of dem strong holds to kinder more tolerant parts of America. Maybe, you continue to deflect from the real issues that every day Americans are concerned with?

Craig, it's way past time every day Americans wake up and realize they've been brain-washed into supporting a party that has no real interest in their well being but wants their votes in order to grease the wheels of the rich and comfortable. The notion of small government and low taxes is simply a refusal to face facts. But then there are always alternative facts, another novel concept from your party of choice. As for folowing science, that's not a Democrat failure. Tell you dear leader to follow science.

Are you implying people who post here don't pay their tax obligation?

Or, that you think it should be more?

Swing, and a miss.

Best,
Ted

ted, don't try. You've consistently shown yourself too stupid and lazy with the lack of effort you put into and researching and supporting your positions. I've given you plenty of opportunity, I just know after experience not to expect much from you now.

Its at the point where I sure hope you don't help Jr. with his homework. We want that kid to pass.

Home run

Best,
nca

What in the world are you talking about, there�s no greyhound from Wolfpoint to Billings, is there Bill?

Did I mention Grammy or chemo therapy? I mention the science of facts, not the feelings of your spin. Unfortunately, you are acknowledging exactly what I am talking about.

Go ahead, call me all the names you want, but I will gladly present facts and poke fun at your unsupported positions. In truth, I would prefer an intelligent big boy conversation. There�s got to be a record mixed in here somewhere, ever week or two you tell me I hit some new low.

Every time we�ve �discussed� various socialized health care programs in MT, you never have disagreed with me, have you bill? You just emotionally hate, right bill? Stay warm.

Where�s bill? Is this the code of the progressive educator?

It sure the hell is thrifty! Otherwise if left to your devices you would teach the kids a curriculum like this, and your side has:

https://www.theatlantic.com/education/ar...slavery/552098/

Even though stuff like this really explains why you are so grossly misinformed, we have to turn misinformation propagated by the right, around.

Thankfully, that incompetent hack Devos is on her way out.

OK-how about raping little girls? What's your theory on that. Any man who rapes a child, regardless of gender, should suffer the penalty enacted in the town-head countries on the men found guilty of such an infamita. Here's their punishment: The guilty man is enticed by a hooker until his dick gets stiff-then they shove a glass tube (catheter) up the uretha, place his dick on a wooden block, and smash it with a large wooden mallet-after that, he is feed a high salt diet, so that he drinks a lot of water--

Sure, the Church and many of the Popes, except the current one, thank God, have shuffled the pedophile Priests from parish to parish, to cover up this long-time scandal that has cast a long dark shadow over the reputation of the Holy Church. But all these fut-buckin' men of the cloth should remember the words of Our Savior-- "And for anyone who brings harm to any of these little ones, better that they be dropped into the depths of the sea with a chain around their neck." Personally, for any pedophile, priest or layman, who inflicts this infamita on any child, I prefer the Mideastern remedy. RWTF

Like I said, you always begin to make personal attacks when you are losing an argument. You come here to a site where older men are posting about a fairly expensive hobby, implying these guys either don�t pay taxes or don�t pay enough.

That, is simpleton, liberal logic. Everybody here is at a stage of life and income where only an abject fool would post they either don�t, or should pay more taxes.

A page from your book:

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/yahoo-news/

A leftist info site is OK enough for a guy of your credentials (uh, none) but, heaven forbid John, or, I link to one with conservative notions.

My kid speaks more languages then you, and is an A student, mostly without any help. You should really concentrate on speaking the truth, but, that would mostly leave a progressive like you with nothing to talk about.

Keith was correct about you and your predilection to post lies about children.

No home runs for a kid like you, who would never be picked to play.

Prove me wrong.


Best,
Ted

What you don't realize, unsurprisingly, is that your whole response proves my accurate insult to you. You are stupid ie too dumb to figure it out; and lazy, ie too indolent to put the hard work in to figure it out.

My complaint isn't that you don't pay or pay enough in taxes. I know you are not well enough off to take advantage of loopholes.

Its that you hate to pay taxes and that hatred has turned you sour on what the taxes goes toward in the social contract; providing infrastructure, services and security. Sour to the point of tribalism that is part of our division in this nation that you hate to pay for. All cause you are a cheap and selfish person not really concerned with the welfare of your community. Get it now?

Your further lack of intelligence is on full display when apparently don't realize that "my book" rates the leanings of a media source on a scale.

Too funny.

Hey, here's a hint genius, when you find a credible source to rebut me that comes in at "Center Right" and above "Mixed" for factual reporting, I might not have the factual basis for calling you lazy anymore.

But there is nothing you can do about the stupid part.

Go plot with your buddies in the treehouse now.

So you don't help with the homework. Probably why he is an A student. Not hard to connect the dots there.

One thing to say someone hates taxes, simply because they are conservative in their views.

Another to prove it. Feel free.

Truth is, I hate seeing tax dollars wasted. Because, that could be used to do some good. The schools are feeding kids two meals a day, a program that does lots of good. I wouldn�t and haven�t complained, about that, and, I�m well enough off not to need it.

But, you assume I would.

Your presumptions are inaccurate, and just progressive talking points that assume too many things. Hey, a left leaning news site, is just that, but, if the info is true, so be it. Ditto a right leaning site. You�ve been busy linking away with mostly nontruth. But, can�t even see it.


The things that are facts to you, for, the very most part, simply are not.

Best,
Ted

Sure does seem to bother you that other people get health care that your taxes subsidize or do you deny that now?

And getting to that and your previous rant of how mistreated you were under the ACA, are you aware of the campaign of sabotage the GOP did ever since its enactment?

https://www.healthinsurance.org/blog/2019/07/26/12-ways-the-gop-sabotaged-obamacare/

https://www.salon.com/2017/03/22/how-rep...office_partner/

You are mad at the wrong people about this but as has always been the problem with you, just to stupid and lazy to figure it out.

FYI the rest of your response was nothing more then you throwing up some [censored] dust and running away. Characteristically non-substantive and whimsical.

Enactment? Shirley, you jest. I think progs still get a tingle up their leg recalling when nan walked that big ole wood hammer up the stairway to congress, repeating, if you want to read the bill, you have to pass the bill.

It never bothered me for a moment that another needy soul received the precious gift of health care. The problem has always been that you define health care. It is entirely your problem along with the rest of the progs, and not a question of tax subsidies. You could get so much. but you get what you deserve.

Quite simply the gov't at any level has to take money from someone at one level to give it to another. There needs to be enough of a host for the parasites to feed on or the whole system dies.

The stupid and lazy part is a prog like you thinking the government can or should do that for you. If the Unaffordable Care Act was sabotaged, those people deserve a medal. Keith already pointed out the many shortcomings of your progressive almost wet dream.
Too bad, huh? The hopy changey thing, especially the socialized medicine part of it, fell way short, just as I told you it would.

Better luck next time, shortcake.

Best,
Ted

And the very same people in the GOP that feel the same way you do are the ones that put you into that bind with the ACA in the first place. Yup, you sure told me.

Still can't see it can you? Well at least 77 million people and 5+% more of the voting population do. Shame is you will likely, and undeservingly so, benefit from their better judgement just like you did under Obama.

Can't say you don't have a sense of humor. Barry was like bashing your fingers with a hammer, feels so good when it stops.

Conservaturd "thinking" about taxes comes down to a conviction that no one should be taxed for something he doesn't need. In the case of the super-rich all they need is our armed forces to defend their holdings. Every other service of government is just an item they can write a check for. Middle class conservaturds allow that police and fire protection are OK, but public education is suspect, and any form of welfare is an outrage. They condemn abortion but have no concern for children once they're born( Check out child hunger stats in US ). It comes down to the notion that this is the land of the rugged individualist, and if you can't cut it on your own, too bad. Ironically, evangelical " Christians" embrace these views with a passion. They are most emphatically not their brother's keeper.

Easy to throw out blanket BS statements RMB, when you actually know not of what you speak!

Here's a link below that points out 10 Christian organizations that are dedicated to helping the poor and downtrodden and it's it a very small number of actual Christian organizations that do so....combined, probably a much larger charitable impact than the US Gov't, although I will admit, some are the arm with which the US Gov't uses to dole out food products and other goods. Much to your chagrin perhaps, That still doesn't change the fact that there are many Christian organizations out there doing good work.

https://www.theologydegrees.org/best-christian-charities/#:~:text=The%20Top%2010%20Most%20Amazing%20Christian%20Charities.%201,Advancing%20Native%20Missions%3A%20Learn%2C%20Connect%2C%20Engage.%20More%20items

Cameron, I accept what you say. Of course there are exceptions, and I'm thankful for them. When Katrina devastated New Orleans, the Southern Baptists stepped up in a big way. What irks me is the enormous gulf between the need and the response. This is not a country where children should be hungry or go without health care. Period. Standard Republican policy for decades has be that charity needs to be privatized. The problem is that there's no profit in it which is always the motivating factor in privatisation.

I've noticed Cameron that your side seems to cloak yoursevles in this argument, that the church, as a chartibe organization, sees to the less well off.

I wouldn't get too comfortable feeling good about yourselves on that.

The best and most efficient vehicle to provide services to the poor en mass is good government and governance. You know, the institution your side has been sabotaging since Reagan.

And the other issue is, of those donations you guys made, I'm sure some if it went to provide charity for the poor, but the rest probably goes to the legal defense fund for the rampant pedophilia in the church.

If you really wanted to be charitable to the poor, pay your taxes and make sure government is funded and well run.

What exactly is the science behind an �irk�?

Doesn�t honesty require an assessment of how efficiently the gov delivers a service? Or, are we only one post away from you using the libtard name calling strategy? There are many things that your President did, but don�t forget one of them was efficiency in many of the projects that you lefties require studies, blue ribbon commissions and carbon offsets.

If children are hungry, get in your pollution spewing truck and drop off some food, or is it just as valid to note that you are lying?

Edit to add, period!

I do feel good about it, because I see it occurring in my local area with various Church organizations. If you weren't such an ideologue and open your eyes, perhaps you'd see it as well.

Another blanket statement NCA; I don't believe that pedophilia is rampant in but one church organization, which has been previously touched on and concerning the payment of taxes, I do so and have for probably many more years than you have!

You sure like to personally attack anyone that disagrees or points something out that you don't agree with. It's been your MO for as long as I've been reading this forum and IMO, it speaks volumes of your character...go ahead and go into the attack mode. I'm done responding to this particular thread, and really it was in response to what RMB said, which seemed to get your panties in a knot!

Craig, irk and science are a strange combination, but here goes: science ( i.e. statistics) documents food insecurity with considerable precision. The figures show that huge numbers of citizens don't know where the next meal is coming from. Many of them are children. Many are the working poor. Many are people who have lost work because of the bungled Corona response by your dear leader who even managed to infect a number of his entourage. Speaking of government efficiency, Trump's tax cut is a model of government service. Those benefitting from it were our very wealthiest; the poor are holding their breath 'til the trickle kicks in.

Well Cameron, I'm suspect of that. If you really read these threads you would see that its about 6 or 7 members I really get into it with and not you. Apologies if you find me just a little too hot to handle, otherwise If you wish to group yourself into that lowbrow faction, go right ahead, but I didn't invite you.

And yeah I did respond to you. I do find it suspect that one thinks their obligation to pay taxes is somehow relieved if one donate to a religious charity. False equivalency between the two insofar as being vehicles for providing services to the needy.

I do hope my language wasn't too harsh for you.

I will respond NCA! I don't agree that paying taxes assuages ones responsibility to donate to a religious charity or visa versa! One is an obligation, the other is a personal choice.

I will say that you remind me a little of my 35 year old son! He and I have political differences and he and I go around on those differences. Although we do have differences in our viewpoint, he whole heartedly believes in his beliefs and defends them unabashedly...likewise I, mine! We're both entitled to what we believe, without insulting the other. What I don't like is when he makes blanket statements about a group as a whole, such as; the conservatives are a bunch of backwards rednecks or similar comments! I call him out on that and remind him that he wasn't brought up to lump groups of people into some demeaning category, rather they're to be judged individually on the content of their character.

Sure there are individuals within both beliefs who can and should be called out and/or categorized in that manner, but from my experience with many friends and acquaintances on both sides of the political spectrum, and although I may not agree with some, I certainly don't believe a political disagreement should devolve into name calling, threats and personal attacks. Not really too harsh, just a pet peeve of mine when whole groups of people are judged as knuckle dragging morons, so to speak!

Or, as a "basket of deplorables."

I actually agree with this statement above... especially as it pertains to the very large number of able-bodied people who pay zero taxes and often even collect the earned income credit.

I pay more than my share, so I have absolutely nothing to feel ashamed or guilty about.

Those who are simply too lazy to get out and find work, and have no skin in the game, should not have the same rights and benefits as those who actually pay to keep this country running and functioning. For starters, those who do not pay taxes and are on the dole should not have any right to vote themselves even more taxpayer funded benefits.

But that would be the death of the Democrat Party... a win win for the nation.

And if Nancy-boy nca225, rocky mtn bill, and ClapperZapper see some social contract obligations in our Constitution, which clearly does not exist, then they certainly have the freedom to donate a large portion of their earnings to the people they pity. But they do not have the right to make themselves feel noble by dipping into others pockets.

By the way, no corporation ever really pays a dime in taxes. Any taxes paid by General Motors, ExxonMobil, or Coca-Cola is simply passed on to the consumers of their products. The taxes of every one of their suppliers is rolled into the price these corporations pay for parts or ingredients. Then it is all passed on to us. If the cost becomes high enough to send consumers looking elsewhere, those companies lose out to foreign competition, and their employees lose jobs and no longer pay taxes either. Start taxing Jeff Bezos to death, and he will simply move to someplace else, and perhaps take much of his company with him... as is happening right now in high tax nations, and high tax liberal left Democrat controlled cities and states. Don't believe me??? Just look at Andrew Coumo begging wealthy New Yorkers to come home... so he can continue to screw them!

https://fee.org/articles/andrew-cuomo-is-worried-wealthy-new-yorkers-won-t-come-back-he-should-be/

I was born and raised in the UK, moved to Canada with my family, then moved to the US.

If you think their health care "systems" offer any advantage to ours, I'll be happy to buy you a one way ticket so you may avail yourselves of them.

Horror stories? Yeah, pretty much every visit with the NHS was a horror story. My mother almost died, then they used non-dissolving sutures internally and she developed abcesses. They did, in fact, yank out some of my teeth because the wait time for a filling was months, but they could do an extraction today. People do get amputations for diabetes rather than treatment. When my father needed back surgery, he saved up and paid out of pocket, halfway across the country.

Canada's system worked great, until the bills came due. Now it's literally months or years for non-critical care, and a great number of them drive down here for surgery.

I'd be willing to start a civil war before any of that crap catches hold in this country.

I know the manipulated figures those "statistics" come from. It's the same type of modeling that the "Union of Concerned Scientists" used to predict we were 2 minutes, 5 minutes, 3 minutes, 30 seconds from nuclear war for four decades. Somehow, though, we never actually had said war.

If "large numbers" of people didn't actually have statistical security in their meals, then we'd see "large numbers" of them starving to death. Real, not statistical.

As far as tax breaks, by definition, those who pay the most taxes get the biggest break. If someone earning a mil gets a $50K tax break, of course it's a bigger break than someone earning $50K gets.

It's probably unfair that I can afford Westley Richards and Thieme and Schmegelmilch firearms, while some people can only afford Stevens and H&R. Oh, well.

I believe it was Kirk Merrington who told me the English healthcare system was absolutely wonderful, until you got sick. Then, you died.

MZ Williamson, welcome, and congrats on your escape.

Best,
Ted