doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Are these pigeon guns or just decorated with?

I have 2 16ga Sxs with pigeons engraved on them,both Belgium made around 1920s with tight chokes. Do you guys believe they are actually pigeon guns? Maybe for Youth or women( 14 1/4� thin wrists)? Or just decorated that way like a modern pigeon grade?



Tight chokes .025 .025 .020 .030

They are not dedicated pigeon guns, IMO. That is just nice decoration. Pigeon guns were 12 bore or larger, no safety, and were stocked high. Too much drop on those to be flyer guns, too.

Recently bought and read Adam's book on pigeon shooting and the guns and ammo used, and I recall nothing that would lead me to believe these are pigeon guns.

Best, SRH

Thanks Stan. I had never heard of sub gauge pigeon gun. Now I know why.

Stan you can't believe everything you read in a pigeon shooting fantasy book....

No way you can say these weren't pigeon guns.

Pigeon shooting is more about gambling and fast money...

Last I heard not a very Christian thing.

If Cyril Adams writes something on pigeon shooting you can take it to the bank. I guess if you found a .410 with a gold pigeon on it, it would be a gen-u-ine pigeon gun, eh?

Beside Joe, I said it's only my opinion. Cool ya' jets.

SRH

Joe there has been a consensus from multiple sources since I asked the question recently, that these are just a high grade designation.

Maybe the Good Lord doesn't like gambling and money, but surely He can't get out of sorts about us guys shooting a bunch of airborne poopsters. If He does, I'm on the Highway to Hell- I've shot untold numbers of barn pigeons, and will keep doing so until I can no longer shuck a Model 12.

You might remember, Joseph, that when our Lord and Savior drove the money changers out of the Temple- it wasn't Messers Merrill, Lynch, Pierce, Fenner and Bean he kicked out-- RWTF

There were rules at some clubs specifying closer rises for sub gauge guns. If they are set up like a target gun it's possible. All the big money shooters seem to have used 12's after 10's were no longer "legal" .

I am probably going to regret wading in here, but I will take a chance at being told by naysayers that I am full of Crap.
That said I will only print here what I have PERSONAL first hand knowledge of.

Smallbore "Pigeon Guns" did exist, and were seen in limited use in Europe by a small number of competitors , usually women and children.

I have handled several , but will describe two that I am familiar with offhand, one I shot a good bit at game , and one I handled in the presence of its then current owner.

The first was one of only 2 O/U guns in the large collection of fine guns owned by a now deceased American flyer shooter with extensive experience on both sides of the Atlantic. He bought it much for its novelty.
A 20 bore HAMMER O/U (not a misprint) A solid rib 28" tightly choked 6 3/4 to 7 lb. gun with Belgian proofs. Half pistol grip and fairly high dimensions. It bore the name of J.Bartel a franco-belge maker of the period.
I shot the gun a dozen times or so in the field. It was commissioned by the original owner as a gun for his children.

The second was owned and shot for years by one of the Italian women luminaries of the sport. The then owner of the gun showed it to me in the armory at the old club in Bologna in the early 1980's It was a Holland Royal Pigeon gun in 16 gauge and had pigeon gun characteristics that one would find common on a SxS gun used in the European rings of the time, but was a 16 bore.
I am working from an old memory but I believe it was the weapon of choice of Contessa Lea della Gheradesca. If I am mistaken about the shooter , then I believe it may have been Mimma Schreiber, an equally famous women's competitor of the period.
I am going to look at some old pictures if time permits to confirm.

Since Cyril's name came up in this thread, I believe he will recall seeing the Bartel O/U in my possession many years ago.

Delighted in your recovery , Stan.

Thanks for your input, Paul. I know that you have infinitely more first hand knowledge of the sport than I, and I respect your opinion highly. What I can't understand is the obvious large amounts of drop on these two specific guns, and the safeties.

Thanks for weighing in. I appreciate it.

SRH

re: bore restrictions in the U.S.

1890 American Shooting Association Rules
https://archive.org/stream/fieldcovertrapsh01boga#page/458/mode/2up
No limit on powder
In single bird (target) shooting the rise shall be:
Eighteen yards for ten-bore guns; limit 1 1/4 oz.
Sixteen yards for twelve-bore guns; limit 1 1/8 oz.
Fourteen yards for fourteen and sixteen bore guns; limit 1 oz.
Thirteen yards for twenty-bore guns; limit 7/8 oz.
In double-target shooting the rise shall be:
Sixteen yards for ten-bore guns.
Fourteen yards for twelve-bore guns.
Twelve yards for fourteen and sixteen bore guns.
Eleven yards for twenty-bore guns.
Rules for Live Bird Shooting - same load limitations
The rise shall be:
Thirty yards for ten-bore guns.
Twenty-eight yards for twelve-bore guns.
Twenty-six yards for fourteen and sixteen bore guns.
Twenty-five yards for twenty-bore guns.

Sporting Life April 5, 1890
https://digital.la84.org/digital/collection/p17103coll17/id/49988/rec/4

The 1898 �Trap Shooting Rules� by the American Shooting Association (courtesy of Randy Davis) listed the following rules:
Charge of powder was unlimited
Shot was limited to 1 1/4 oz. by �Dixon�s measure�
Weight limit (there was no weight limit in 1890 or 1893) and �naked� was not stated:
10g - 9 lbs. 4 oz.
12g - 8 lbs. 4 oz.
16g - 7 lbs. 12 oz.
20g - 7 lbs. 8 oz.
Single target rise���.Double target rise:
10g - 18 yds�.....��16 yds.
12g - 16 yds�...�....14 yds.
16g - 14 yds�...�....12 yds..
20g - 13 yds�...�....11 yds.

From 1895 to 1902 Sporting Life routinely reported the guns and loads used by competitors at major shoots.
These are the 25s at 1901 GAH at Live Birds
https://digital.la84.org/digital/collection/p17103coll2/id/42076



I recall ONE GAH at Live Birds competitor who was using a 16g; 1899 GAH. E.A. Sturdevant shot a 16-gauge Parker at 26 yards, with 2 3/4 drams Du Pont, and 1 ounce No. 8 and 7 shot. He killed 23.

Even the ladies used 12g; Annie Oakley mostly 1 oz 2 3/4 Dr.Eq at targets and 3 Dr.Eq. at Live Birds.

April 4, 1896 Sporting Life
One of the pleasantest features of the recent Interstate shoot at Kirkwood Park was the presence of the two lady contestants, Mrs. M. F. Lindsley, �Wanda,� of Cincinnati, wife of Milt F. Lindsley, manufacturer of the King's Smokeless powder, and Annie Oakley, who is the acknowledged champion pigeon shot of her sex in the world. �Wanda� was attended by her husband, who felt well satisfied when his clever wife stood in the big match after a dozen men had dropped out, among them being some of the best pigeon shots of the country.
Her score was equal to that made by such men as Captain A. W. Money, George S. McAlpin, William Wagner, W. S. Edey and W. H. Green. The quality of the birds were a little too fast even for some of the best shots, and �Wanda� can be congratulated for her pluck in entering such a contest.
She used a 12g Smith gun, 7 pounds weight, 3 drams of King's Smokeless powder, 1 1/8 ounces of No. 7 and 6 shot in Peters shells.

Sporting Life, April 2, 1898 GAH report
https://digital.la84.org/digital/collection/p17103coll2/id/45659
Mrs. W.P. Shattuck shoots a rather heavy charge. She uses an L.C. Smith gun weighing 7 3/4 pounds, 3 1/4 drams of Du Pont powder 1 1/4 ounces No. 7 1/2 shot, in first barrel, and 3 1/2 drams, 1 1/4 ounces No. 7 shot in second barrel; loaded in a 3-inch Leader shell.

Remember, the OP didn't ask any question about whether or not a 16 could be a pigeon gun. He asked specifically about the two he pictured. There are elements about those two guns that do not align with typical pigeon guns.

Best, SRH

Both of these guns are 6.25 lbs 2 5/8 drop at heel. Everything is pointing to just adornment. Was actual pigeon hunting popular in Europe during this time?
Thanks for the input by all.

Pigeons were a popular motif on U.S. guns, and lots of Smith Pigeon Guns were not used for Live Birds; one of 20 20g



Dr Jim has documented 23 16g Smith Pigeon Guns (the pre-1913 Grade designation)

20g Smith Monogram

Stan,
Regarding pigeon guns and safeties - I have a Boswell 12-b (3") with side clips
and safety made in 1922. The description in their serial number book shows it as a "pigeon gun."

And small bores without safeties were not uncommon on Southern Plantation quail shoots in which the "sport" only touched the gun after it was handed to him; a 16g Smith No. 2

I realize we are wandering OT, but this might be of interest
https://www.trapshooters.com/threads/pigeon-guns-and-pigeon-matches.829491/

I agree there are examples of true pigeon guns with a safety. Point is that they are atypical.

I own a 3E 12, 32", vent rib Smith. The original owner's name is engraved on the rib. He was a member of the Philadelphia Gun Club, which actively shot flyers. Yet, it has a safety. I believe it was ordered by the owner as a multi-purpose gun ........ to include occasionally shooting pigeons. It still is not a true pigeon, IMO. It is not stocked high enough.

Thanks, SRH

Stan, I'm not saying that either of the guns of the OP are indeed pigeon guns.....just saying they (subguages) existed....High stock dimensions on Boxbird guns in Europe were/are much less common, than those seen stateside for Barnaby boxes.
MANY vintage pigeon guns in use in Europe have a myriad of leather, cork, wood dutchmen, splices and/or a combination of these are added to achieve a higher sight picture on M&F barreled guns, some of the most famous still bearing sling swivels.

As to the absence of a safety, I have observed that it more frequently appears on American pigeon guns than English or Italian best designed for the ring. Various means were of course employed to deactivate or pin/block the manual safeties on these guns just as we see on competition guns here.

The SxS has all but disappeared from the rings in Europe, Fewer than 10-12 were in use in any of the last 10 trips to Spain, Portugal or Mexico (We saw 3 at this years World Championship)over the past 3 years at various World and European championships and other World Cup events.

Quite a difference from my first trip to Italy in 1979 when they were still @ 30% of the guns in use.

I have seen quite a lot of confirmed English pigeon guns with safety slides fitted. However they were very rarely automatic.
Small bores were definitely used by some competitors in the UK and Europe back in the day but played by different rules, as mentioned above.
Whether the guns in the OP are pigeon guns, I have no input to offer. I suspect they were a 'higher' grade model of normal sporting gun.

Pidgeon guns were often described with "file cut flat ribs" . The guns shown seem to have that feature. I have/had a few guns, 12 bore, with the flat cut ribs, sideclips, tang safeties, and prooved for 1 1/4 oz or more. They were heavy guns with 30" barrels.

I have a friend here in NC that purchased a Robertson 20 bore boxlock that Cyrill sleeved to 30" and had a pigeon rib installed. Not sure he used it for pigeons or for shooting doves down south of the border.

I confess I have found this thread to be a little confusing. Is the subject pigeon hunting, live pigeon competition shooting, both, or neither?

Sorry but why would the guns in the first post above have pigeons engraved on them, if not for boxed pigeon shooting? In early 20 th century were they pigeon hunting ( maybe wood pigeons?)guns? Or just grade decor? Light 16ga tight choked with pigeons engraved?

European Wood Pigeon (C. palumbus) hunting was popular in England, Western (esp. Spain & France) and Eastern Europe (Hungary) in the 20s.
Check out Palombiere
https://www.rifleshootermagazine.co.uk/f...biere-1-5376880

Thanks Doc that Link was very interestIng and unusual. Reminded me of our best goose pits here.

Live pigeon competition example (Spain):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2g4XlP_Gkw

You can still shoot the Silvery Wood Pigeon in Northern Argentina.


Great video on pigeon shooting as that was for real money. I have shot with some pigeon shooters around the world and there's an art to keeping the pigeon from leaving the ring / grounds.


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

The dedicated live pigeon shooters are a breed apart. Well, make that mostly "were" now. Increasingly just history.

1883 Hurlingham rules for Pigeon Shoots:

Lots more vintage live action Pigeon (and trap) videos here
https://www.trapshooters.com/threads/vintage-live-action-trap-and-live-bird-shooting.514889/

This might be of interest also; Monte Carlo Le Tir aux Pigeons
http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/24800261

Madrid 1949 with Homer Clark winning the Live Bird World Championship, with an Ithaca NID 5E. He won again in 1951 at Monte Carlo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqLxi9uZGew

1961

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBJyBcFX3Jk

Undated

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uU-Jqs2ruu4

1945-1969

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWb5ugbFmyg

Stanley

You seem to forget the American shooter of the day evidently liked a lot of drop and even some had enough sense to operate a safety.

Not so "obvious" now is it...

Even before the turn-of-the-century U.S. Live Bird and Inanimate Target competitors specified dimensions very similar to those used today

In 1887, Parker Representative W.S. Perry ordered a C Grade 10g with a LOP of 14 3/8" and DAC 1 1/4� X DAH 2� (Courtesy of Bill Murphy)

The Art of Wing Shooting: A Practical Treatise on the Use of the Shotgun ...
William Bruce Leffingwell, 1895
http://books.google.com/books?id=e34EmE3tkfkC
'Capt.' John L. Brewer of Philadelphia.
�A gun for pigeon shooting should weigh from 7 1/2 to anywhere under 8 pounds. It should be heavy at the breech, with a long and very straight stock, having a drop from 2 to 2 1/2 inches at the butt. These straight stocks are desirable, because they cause one to shoot high, something which is essential, as there is a tendency to undershoot, and nearly every pigeon is missed by shooting under or behind.�

Fred Gilbert (1865-1928) was one of the world�s best known shooters from 1895-1915 and used a L.C. Smith to win the DuPont World�s Pigeon Shooting Championship in 1895 and the �E.C.� Inanimate Target Championship Cup in 1896. The �Fred Gilbert Specifications� were for a drop at comb of 1 3/8 inches; at the heel, 2 inches; length from trigger to heel, 14 1/4 inches; trigger to toe 14 1/2 inches; and trigger to center of butt 14 inches; with a full pistol grip and 30-inch full choke barrels.

In Feb. 1898, C.W. Budd received on consignment a Parker $400 AAH Pigeon Gun SN 87449 with 30� Whitworth barrels F/F and 2 7/8� chambers. LOP was 14� and DAH 2 1/4� with a pistol grip stock and no safety. It weighed 7# 12 oz.

Lots more here, including the dimensions used by 28 competitors at a shoot in 1901
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1c7UkkNyMTZ9NAztILpzjSLKvgIneAw5i7eqkZ3d3Eno/preview

re: the OPs guns, it is quite possible the pigeons are simply embellishment on a game gun, with dimensions as desired by the purchaser