doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com winchester 23 and steel shot

I just got a winchester 23 Heavy Duck. The chokes have been opened to .720 and .725. I would think that since it was made in japan and 1984 when steel was fairly common to shoot in certain areas it will work fine. Especially since it has such open chokes. I dont intend to shoot only numbered size steel not big stuff like BB or bigger(mainly #4). What are your opinions and experiences?

thanks
duckaholic

I actually have the same question in the same gun. I've avoided it by shooting bismuth so far, I have a bunch of steel from earlier years in stock. I've never opened the chokes, they're marked full & full. They don't act like a very tight full with lead.

I would not shoot steel especially older steel in that gun...Geo

So what do we actually know (and confirming these dates was a challenge)?
Rumors about the steel mandate for waterfowl picked up about 1976.
The Olin-Kodensha Winchester Model 23 was introduced in 1978.
During the 79'- 80'waterfowl season, some steel shot zones were established.
500 Heavy Duck models were manufactured in 1984.
More lead bans were put in place for the 87'-88' season.
It is reported that the Kodensha barrels are chrome lined.
The Model 23 IS marked "Winchester Proof Steel".
AFAIK Winchester never claimed the Model 23 was "steel shot compatible" in 1984 or later.

IF the barrels are indeed 4140 WPS and chrome lined there would be little difference from "modern" 4140 steel shot compatible barrels, the use of which would of course require the appropriate choke.

I believe however there would be legitimate concern regarding rib separation and head of the stock splitting with 3" 1 1/4 oz. at 1450 fps steel loads. Remington Nitro Steel has a 2 3/4" 1 1/8 oz. 4s at 1390 fps
https://www.remington.com/ammunition/shotshell/waterfowl-loads/nitro-steel-high-velocity

Bill: what are those "earlier years"? At some point the steel load wads were manufactured thicker and tougher, but I don't know when.

What exactly would make it steel compatible or not?? Are you saying that the steel in the barrels cannot handle steel shot?? I just dont get this. So many on this board have the standard answer regarding any question about shooting steel shot in any particular gun, and that answer usually is "I would not shoot steel in my ..........(fill in the blank). It seems to me that this is simply the easiest answer to give and is based on perhaps no real evidence. I do know that some of the "old' steel shot was not very waterproof and often turned to solid steel slugs after a while. But newer shells with plastic shot cups, etc, should be safe in any gun that has been properly taken care of and has no existing damage to the barrels, at least any made after WW II. So, hit me with some definitive answers other than what might amount to hearsay.

Having looked in the ammo cave it appears I must got rid of the steel duck and goose shells from the eighties. I have a couple of boxes of 1 oz. Fiocchi #7's from the early ninties from when I was shooting along the Rio Grand River. For me steel in the HD Model 23 is an academic question as I don't shoot much waterfowl anymore and I can use bismuth or the other stuff if I put in for cranes.

Steel does not deform and thus can scratch or gouge barrels, but more importantly, it can have difficulty negotiating the throat (forcing cone) and the chokes and may stretch them, especially the chokes. This is a bigger problem with tighter chokes and bigger shot sizes. You can bell a barrel in some cases.

Also, to make up for less density there is a desire to go faster and have higher pressures.

Your mileage may vary, but I listen to companies like Briley when they describe that is and is not compatible with their choke tubes.

If you happen to own a Fabbri shotgun, you allegedly can shoot steel shot through a full choked barrel. Apparently, their barrels are made of some sort of aeronautical grade stainless steel which is 80-90% stronger than steel used in lesser guns. Not too sure why a guy would want to shoot steel through a full choked Fabbri shotgun, but I guess you can, and can with immunity.

Not all of �em:

https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=486275&page=4

I have no dog in this fight. I have a gun or three I can shoot steel in, and a few I can shoot steel in BECAUSE I WILL NOT LIVE TO SEE THE RESULTS.

None of them, are Fabbris, by the way.

Got bismuth, got heavi-shot, got no worries at his point in the ball game.

Best,
Ted

My advice above was based on the tighter than modified chokes in the Winchester in question. In addition, my concern about older steel shells is the shot collar used. New ones have collars which provide protection to barrels from steel gouging. My concern is also primarily with duck/goose size shot. Smaller shot, say 7 1/2 has less reported tendency to bridge and blow out your choke...Geo

I was responding to BorderBill's post.

I only impersonate a metallurgist on DoubleGunBBS, only know what I read (which requires the willingness to do the research), and what I have been told by genuine metallurgical, materials, and mechanical engineers.

Choosing a steel that is suitable for a shotgun barrel (or any application) has multiple factors:
Ultimate tensile strength (when it breaks)
Yield strength and % elongation (measure of ductility)
Brittleness (the opposite of ductility - a brittle metal has a low % elongation before fracture)
Impact resistance/hardness
Corrosion resistance
And some other stuff I don't understand

Early steel shot (which is annealed iron) had a Brinell hardness of 70 - 110
The standard now is 95 DPH or Brinell 79
Lead shot has a Brinell hardness of about 12

A pre-WWI shotgun barrels of AISI 1020 has a (NON HEAT TREATED) tensile strength of about 62,000 psi with a Brinell hardness of about 120
A post-1920s shotgun barrel of AISI 1040 has a tensile strength of about 90,000 psi and Brinell hardness of 197
AISI 2340 Nickel steel has a tensile strength of about 110,000 psi and Brinell hardness of 194
AISI 4140 Chrome Moly has a tensile strength of about 100,000 psi and Brinell hardness of 197

A single specimen of Winchester Nickel Steel was non-standard AISI 2340 with a tensile strength of 124,000 psi (suggesting some form of heat treatment)
A single specimen of Winchester Proof Steel (Chrome Molybdenum alloy) was non-standard AISI 4135 with a tensile strength of 107,000 psi


Steel alloys (the extremely short version)
Carbon - Higher C increase hardness, tensile strength, and hardenability with heat treatment
Manganese - prevents the formation of iron sulfide inclusions, and increases the hardenability
(Manganese sulfide improves machinability but inclusions weaken the steel)
Chromium - increases the hardenability of steel and markedly improves the corrosion resistance
Molybdenum - increases hardenability and elevated temperature strength.
Nickel - increases hardenability, impact resistance, and ductility of the steel.

Chrome lining (done correctly) adds significant hardness and corrosion resistance


There is no doubt that steel shot can score softer shotgun barrels




It has also been suggested that steel shot can cause micro-fractures in the forcing cone



Few modern makers are willing to disclose the composition of their shotgun barrels. Beretta Steelium (NOT on the periodic table ) is a "proprietary tri-alloy blend". There is good data however that most (non-stainless steel) "steel shot compatible" barrels are something similar to 4140 or 4340.

So with a choke of no more than Improved cylinder with a 1984 model winchester 23 Heavy Duck could I shoot modern numbered (usually #4) steel shot. I just find it hard to believe that a gun manufactured during a time when steel shot was required in certain areas for waterfowl that winchester made a Heavy Duck gun that would not handle steel shot.

I called winchester and ask them what the standard inside bore diameter was for a 23 HD was and the reply was "we don't have that information". I ask about shooting steel shot in the gun and they said "no". How can you not know the standard internal bore diameter, but know if you can shoot steel.

I shoot steel in my pre-Type one Browning Citori
(Manufactured 1973 through 1976) choked IC/MOD.
Made in Japan by Miroku.
I do use 2 3/4 and 3" ammo.
Shot many hundreds of rounds of steel and thousands
of rounds of lead, even buckshot.

No issues with that particular gun BUT I was willing to sacrifice that gun in the endeavor.

Mike

fun reading

https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=35630

https://www.browning.com/support/frequen...ng-shotgun.html

I understand the implications of choke and the density of steel shot and its resistance to compression George. It is just beyond my imagination that any shotgun manufacturer would market a barrel today that would not handle steel provided the precautions on choke and shot size were adhered to.

The gun says on the right barrel "made in japan".

Drew Hause, what is the model/models of double you took pictures of?

The short answer is YES. Your 23 will handle steel shot. Modern steel loads, the shot will never come close to contacting the bore. Stick with moderate velocity and shot no larger than 2 and you will be fine. The tightest choke constriction should be no more than 20 thousandths. A great combo is .010 & .015...if you�re pass shooting or taking longer shots, .020 will work too.
Keep your draw bolt tight/snug and periodically check it throughout the season. Get the plastic fouling out of the bore after each hunt and you should be good to go. I have friends who�ve been using BSS�s & 23�s with steel for a couple decades now with no ill effects on the barrels, the only problem I�ve heard of is of several guns coming off the face after several thousand Duck load rounds. In my opinion....that�s gonna happen to pretty much any double used for waterfowling eventually. Goes with the territory. If it starts getting a little wiggly in the joint...have it rejointed and use it for a few more thousand rounds (aka a couple decades).

Have to agree. I've seen steel shot used in BSS's, Winchesters, older Citoris and a few others since steel shot came out with no ill effects if the gun is set up properly choke wise. I have a 1973 Superposed 20 gauge that belonged to my Uncle. He had the chokes opened to modified and shot steel through it for waterfowl every year since it was mandatory. It certainly hasn't hurt the gun.

I shoot 2 3/4 steel in one of my Daly Miroku 500's but it has been opened from M/F to modified. A few years, probably ten with no problems I have noted...Geo

Bismuth works better though!

As said I'm not going to use any steel cartridges in my HD 23 F&F as the waterfowl volume I'm going to be shooting nowadays looks negligible, bismuth will do. I am looking for a 20 gauge S&S advertised as steel capable like a Rizzini or some something. A friend wants me to come out to California and work my dogs with his at his hunt club. Fascinating information from Drew Hause. Like my Father often said: "You'll learn something new every day if you're not careful".

Not "advertised" as such, but it would be hard to go wrong with a BSS 20ga. Lots of us use them with steel, myself included. The SKB 100 would be another alternative that many have used with steel.