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Jun 14th, 2026
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Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,190 Likes: 15
Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,190 Likes: 15 |
The 1902 and 1903 large Syracuse Arms catalogs were the only factory produced catalogs to feature the full SAC grades line up (sans the hammer gun), and special attention was paid to the five high grade models (grades A, A-1, B, C, and D) in that the grade depictions included both a side and bottom view of what the maker claimed were actual guns. From studying those depictions I was able to read the Grade A and Grade D gun serial number (#25317 and #25307 respectively), while serial numbers on the A-1, B, and C Grade guns were either partially legible; or completely illegible. The catalog featured D Grade was located 20 years ago and is still with the same owner; but I'd never located the A Grade and had no idea if it still existed (this same A Grade is also featured in the 1905 pocket catalog). But that search has now ended as SAC gun #25317 surfaced at the just completed Amoskeag auction and was purchased by a SAC collector in California. Unlike the D Grade catalog gun it saw lots of use, but is still intact with no after-market mods. As a SAC collector I'm happy to finally learn that this example still survives after 118 years, and thought some forum members might appreciate knowing that fact also.
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,726 Likes: 129
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,726 Likes: 129 |
Mr. Topgun, I wonder whether the SAC catalogs will be reproduced? Those Cornell copies sure are useful...Geo
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Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,190 Likes: 15
Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,190 Likes: 15 |
I've no idea George. I've given thought to having mine reproduced, but both my '02 and '03 catalogs are very delicate and I don't want to risk damage. And further, if they were reproduced I've wondered how a reproduction might impact the value of the originals; and the originals I have very not inexpensive. For instance, I'm aware of three original 1903 catalogs, and one of those sold on eBay a few years ago for better than $1200 (that same catalog sold in a private sale about 3 years ago, although I'm not aware of the price). I've no idea what my SAC catalog collection would bring today, but I'm reluctant to take a chance on reducing the value of the originals because I allowed mine to be reproduced. The only thing I can say for sure regarding SAC catalogs is that they are extremely hard to come by. Tom
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,726 Likes: 129
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,726 Likes: 129 |
Someone gave me a copy of his family's gun company catalog from long ago. It was gifted to me with the proviso that I never allow anyone to copy it. I think it was his intent to use it in a book he might write one day. Can't say as I blame him. Or you...Geo
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Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 496
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 496 |
Not to jump in on this thread but a couple months ago i ran into one of these shotguns in grade 2 in very nice condition case hardening visable with 24 in. barrels that dont appear to have been cut [???] also the Damascus barrels are in exc. cond. inside and out. the pistol grip bottom is flat. I located a second set of steel barrels which I am fitting. also automatic ejectors serial#26432 I didn't know if you are collecting info. if so i hope this is helpful.
regards
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Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,190 Likes: 15
Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,190 Likes: 15 |
Thanks pod, and in answer to your question, I haven't collected serial number information in many years now; my current focus being on unusual guns and new research data. But your Grade 2 was one of SAC's most popular models with beautiful Damascus patterned barrels and retailed at $50 (suggested) with auto-ejectors and $55 if fitted with the ejector on/off device. Your serial number would indicate yours to be what is know as a "Second Variation Model" with stock head in-letted into the frame, double top bolt, strengthened top strap, and modified safety slide. If your gun was ordered with the ejector on/off device, it would be a bit rare as that device is seldom seen on guns below Grade A. In 12-bore, barrels were never cataloged shorter than 28" but I own a Grade 3 light weight gun special ordered with 26" barrels; so who's to say someone couldn't order 24" tubes? But I've also owned SAC guns with 18" and 20" barrels and can attest that those tubes were definitely cut (and one of those guns was a rare BE grade). Your serial number would date your gun to 1902. Good luck with your barrel fitting; and if you don't know already, barrels from the three different production periods are not interchangeable so your replacement set should have a serial number in the approximate range of 245XX to 335XX (there is some overlap).
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 2,361 Likes: 107
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 2,361 Likes: 107 |
Thanks pod, and in answer to your question, I haven't collected serial number information in many years now; my current focus being on unusual guns and new research data. But your Grade 2 was one of SAC's most popular models with beautiful Damascus patterned barrels and retailed at $50 (suggested) with auto-ejectors and $55 if fitted with the ejector on/off device. Your serial number would indicate yours to be what is know as a "Second Variation Model" with stock head in-letted into the frame, double top bolt, strengthened top strap, and modified safety slide. If your gun was ordered with the ejector on/off device, it would be a bit rare as that device is seldom seen on guns below Grade A. In 12-bore, barrels were never cataloged shorter than 28" but I own a Grade 3 light weight gun special ordered with 26" barrels; so who's to say someone couldn't order 24" tubes? But I've also owned SAC guns with 18" and 20" barrels and can attest that those tubes were definitely cut (and one of those guns was a rare BE grade). Your serial number would date your gun to 1902. Good luck with your barrel fitting; and if you don't know already, barrels from the three different production periods are not interchangeable so your replacement set should have a serial number in the approximate range of 245XX to 335XX (there is some overlap). Top... whats the weight of your grade 3? We'd love to see pics?
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Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,190 Likes: 15
Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,190 Likes: 15 |
To be honest Mr. Battle, I'm technologically challenged and therefore haven't figured out the photo posting thing, but if you'll forward your email addy to tomarcher@charter.net I'll be glad to take and share some; although please be aware that Doc Drew has declared me photo challenged also, so they may not be great. By the way, period cataloged weights for SAC 12-bores were 6 1/2 to 8 1/2 pounds; this example weighs in at about 6 lbs. 9 oz. as I recall.
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 722
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 722 |
Thanks, Tom. I have a low grade, 1902, SAC and find the guns fascinating. Glad to hear one of the higher grade guns lives.
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Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,190 Likes: 15
Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,190 Likes: 15 |
Philbert, although the Grade 3 was a higher grade, it was not considered high grade by the company. Nowadays finding a SAC gun that has survived in near new condition seems virtually impossible; but if one can be obtained that individual will be amazed at the quality and attention to detail given even the lowest grade SAC gun. One of our members here has a near new SAC Grade O gun that is stunning, and perhaps he'll post photos if he sees this thread.
I'm privileged to own a 1901 vintage Grade 00 12-bore, the lowest grade and a $29 gun at retail in 1901, that has survived virtually unused and the quality and attention to detail in that gun is amazing; wood to metal fit is flawless, and all screw slots are perfectly qualified.
Most of the survivors we see today have been used and abused to the point that they are ugly undesirable beaters, but high condition survivors are beautiful guns and there is little wonder why low grade SAC guns were good sellers in their time.
Battle - I believe our Friend David Noreen will be posting some pics of the above referenced Grade 3 gun soon.
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 2,361 Likes: 107
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 2,361 Likes: 107 |
To be honest Mr. Battle, I'm technologically challenged and therefore haven't figured out the photo posting thing, but if you'll forward your email addy to tomarcher@charter.net I'll be glad to take and share some; although please be aware that Doc Drew has declared me photo challenged also, so they may not be great. By the way, period cataloged weights for SAC 12-bores were 6 1/2 to 8 1/2 pounds; this example weighs in at about 6 lbs. 9 oz. as I recall. Sent you a PM.
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,975 Likes: 171
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,975 Likes: 171 |
Here is Tom's post with pictures. This gun was a Gunbroker purchase 5-6 years ago. The posted photos were poor and the seller, a New England antique shop, stated the gun did not work. I figured someone had likely removed the hammer springs, as I’ve encountered that issue with SAC guns before; so I thought I’d take a chance at the $400 listing price. As it turns out, there were no other bidders. When the gun was received I was extremely pleased with what I saw; stock finishes were at least 95%, there was zero wear to the butt plate, grip and forend checkering panels, zero rust, mint bores, perfectly aligned and untouched screw slots (except for a missing tang screw), the barrels retained 85-90% original Damascus finish, and the gun still featured about 30% original case color. And in addition to those desirable traits, it had been ordered with a capped pistol grip; a $2 option according to period catalogs (standard was a round knob grip). Features and serial number dated this gun to 1900, and as a First Model. It was an extractor model (so $52 suggested retail with grip cap option); and the flattened breech ball treatment, as opposed to the standard rounded breech balls, denoted this SAC as a light weight gun. The butt stock was basically plain grained English with a few dark mineral streaks; and when I removed the butt plate to look for a stash of gold coins, I found it had been factory drilled with two 7/8” holes to either attain a certain weight or balance point, or both. Interestingly, both holes had been plugged with a piece of maple dowel; and in one of those pieces was the missing tang screw; so the gun was now totally complete and original, and had suffered no aftermarket mods. With its short 26” barrels, light weight, and open chokes I figured this SAC was originally ordered as someone’s grouse gun; but whether it had been or not, the gun was simply never used. I’ve not yet fired this gun so have no idea how it performs; but that’s only because circumstances haven’t yet permitted. When collecting SAC guns one will encounter very few examples of the Grade 3, but the company would go the second mile to insure a Grade 3 customer was happy, The only original SAC hang tag of which I’m aware is from a Grade 3, and apparently the customer was very persnickety about the way his gun was to pattern using a variety of shot sizes; for on that tag were hand written the 40 yard patterns/pellet counts produced from each barrel with all three shot sizes. Another interesting Grade 3 SAC fact is that the company made a special run of Grade 3’s with Krupp barrels and I’ve owned one example and seen one other. All the SAC catalogs I’ve ever found only show the Grade 3 gun as being available with “Improved Damascus” barrels.      
Last edited by Researcher; 09/01/20 10:53 AM.
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,988 Likes: 594
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,988 Likes: 594 |
Syracuse Arms Co. was one of the few U.S. makers to use a "Washington" pattern; also called Ferlacher Austria 1, Bresilien, and Wellington by Manufacture LiegeoiseClaude Gaier's Four Centuries of Liege Gunmaking discusses the connection between US and Belgian firms. Ernest Heuse-Lemoine (1834-1926) from Nessonvaux was a major barrel maker in the Vesdre Valley maintaining agents in London, Birmingham, and New York. Every 3 years he would travel abroad and upon his return, would be met by a band in celebration because he always came back with more orders than his own firm could handle. He would then distribute some of the work to smaller barrel makers. Gaier states that Heuse-Lemoine supplied damascus barrels for at least 50 years to US makers, and that he invented the names of “Boston” and “Washington” damascus especially for the American market. This is a refinished SAC "Washington". Remington called the pattern "Washington N 3. B.P." and unfortunately I don't believe anyone knows the significance of "N 3. B.P"  Note there are tiny rectangles within the scrolls; NOT crosses as with "American Flag", used a lot by Ithaca. Bro. Walt's Crass 4E  The "Star" or "American Flag" lopin is bottom left; the "Washington" is the 3rd on bottom  SAC barrels: The hammer gun (first offered in 1904) was cataloged with “Triplett Steel” only, but several examples have been recorded with “New Twist” barrel tubes. Grade 00 "Triplet Steel" (first offered in 1901); Grade 0 and Grade 1 "New Twist"; Grade 2 and 3 "Improved Damascus"; (a few examples have been located with Krupp Steel barrels); Grades A and A-1 Special Trap "Fine Damascus" or optional Krupp Steel; Grade B and Grade C "Finest Grade Damascus" or optional Krupp Steel. In the 1902 catalog, a new B Grade engraving style was introduced and the Damascus barrel was upgraded from "Fine Quality Damascus" to "Finest Grade Damascus". Grade C guns were furnished with the "Finest Grade of Damascus Steel of very fine figure, fully warranted". The D Grade gun, which retailed in 1901 for $475, was shipped with "the finest Grade of Damascus Steel Barrels that can be obtained" or "Whitworth Fluid Compressed Steel". This is Bro. Tom's Grade 2 SAC; possibly a salesman's sample gun? The right barrel has the "New Twist" pattern; but is roll-stamped "Improved Damascus". The left barrel is "Washington" and correct to grade. 
Last edited by Drew Hause; 09/01/20 02:06 PM. Reason: Correction by Tom Archer
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,988 Likes: 594
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,988 Likes: 594 |
For Bro. Tom A Grade 3E full page ad from a 1903 edition of Recreation In 1903 SAC made their “full pistol” grip (“S” shaped knob) standard on the Grade 3 gun. Prior to 1903 the ball grip was standard on a Grade 3 gun; whereas previously, the Grade A gun had been the lowest grade shipped standard with their “full pistol” grip.  The only SAC gun I’ve definitively able to date is this Grade 3 factory presentation gun. The inscription in the small gold shield reads “Presented by Syracuse Arms Co. Won by H.D. Kirkover June 1900”.  This gun retained very little original finish and plain wood, so wasn’t much to look at; but had good dimensions and easily took a limit of doves the only time I took it afield. H.D. Kirkover was a well known competitor from Buffalo then Fredonia, N.Y. I believe he was the Secy. of the Audubon Park Gun Club in Buffalo https://digital.la84.org/digital/collection/p17103coll17/id/46664/rec/5In 1897 Kirkover ordered a straight grip BH Parker with 30" barrels. June 19, 1898 he was listed as a paid Professional Representative but I couldn't find the company; possibly Parker https://digital.la84.org/digital/collection/p17103coll17/id/43905/rec/30January 28, 1898 high gun at Hamilton, Ontario and living in Fredonia, N.Y. https://digital.la84.org/digital/collection/p17103coll17/id/44432/rec/211898 using a Parker https://digital.la84.org/digital/collection/p17103coll17/id/44346/rec/22 Competed at the 1899 GAH https://digital.la84.org/digital/collection/p17103coll17/id/43581/rec/27Using a Parker with U.M.C. Trap shells, 1 1/4 oz. with 3 1/2 Dr.Eq. DuPont Bulk https://digital.la84.org/digital/collection/p17103coll17/id/43584/rec/27 Participated in the March 1900 Madison Square Garden rooftop match https://digital.la84.org/digital/collection/p17103coll17/id/43481/rec/41 Competed at the 1900 GAH https://digital.la84.org/digital/collection/p17103coll17/id/43039/rec/44Again with a Parker using Winchester Leader shells https://digital.la84.org/digital/collection/p17103coll17/id/42953/rec/45 He was the high gun at the Audubon Club Decoration Day shoot in 1900 and although not mentioned in the Sporting Life report, could have been awarded the gun then https://digital.la84.org/digital/collection/p17103coll17/id/42974/rec/47He did compete at the New York State shoot June 1900, representing the Buffalo Audubon Club, but I didn't find him listed as winning any merchandise https://digital.la84.org/digital/collection/p17103coll17/id/43073https://digital.la84.org/digital/collection/p17103coll17/id/43076 And as to the question of original condition and the looks of low end SAC guns, please consider this near “new” Grade O gun owned by one of our members  And my near “new” Grade OO gun and doves 
Last edited by Drew Hause; 09/02/20 08:41 AM. Reason: addendum
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,988 Likes: 594
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,988 Likes: 594 |
The March 1900 Forest & Stream advertised a Parker Bros. calendar showing “eminent shooters” which included Kirkover https://books.google.com/books?id=UkohAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA218“The calendar for 1900 issued by Parker Brothers, Meriden, Conn., is adorned with a number of new portraits of eminent shooters, with condensed records of their marvelous doings in 1899 with the Parker gun. Grouped around an excellent portrait of Charles Parker are those of Messrs'. S.A. Tucker, Capt. A.W. du Bray, John Parker, W.F. Parker, C.W. Budd, E.C Griffith, W.A. Hammond, Fred Gilbert, O. R. Dickey, F.D. Alkire, G.R. Hunnewell, J.R. Malone, Harold Money, C.F. Ridge, C.E. Robbins, H.W. Brown, A.B. Cartledge, C.M. Powers, J.F. Jordan, F. H. Snow, H.D. Kirkover, E.E. Neal, J.H. Mackie, H.G. Wheeler, A.H. Frank, C.M. Hostetter, A.H. Fox, F.E. Sinnock, Sim Glover and Col. J. T. Anthony.” Here he is in 1913 https://archive.org/details/rodguncan15cana/page/306/mode/2up?q He was quite the sportsman, and still at it in 1916 https://digital.la84.org/digital/collection/p17103coll17/id/24100/
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