doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Churchill Guns or Style...school me on the basics

So, I think I'd like to try a short 25/26" Churchill style gun now that they are out of favor.
Ideally a Real churchill, single trigger, 12 or 20.
OR a well made contemporary copy (i.e. not a Spanish gun)

I realize there are a few different models, and boxlock v side lock, Royal, hercules models, etc.. Can I ask for some input on what is better, best, realistic differences, etc? Prices for Real EJs are all over the board!
Ideally I would like to try this behind my new pointer on Grouse and Woodcock, and so choked SKT/IC is preferable. Just always wanted to try this style to see what its all about.

Thanks.

bls,
Ok, I'll offer my thoughts. I've hunted birds and shot clays with a variety of sxs's, both sidelocks and boxlocks. I had been looking for my perfect grouse and woodcock gun (don't we all?) and was looking for a light 12 ga. choked more open than my usual IC/Mod ones. In my search I found a 12 ga, 26" barreled sxs weighing 5 lbs. 12 oz. and choked .003/.011. It happened to be a Churchill boxlock that was a precursor to the Hercules model. I prefer the boxlock to the sidelock for light weight and smoother edges not to mention cost.
I won't admit it to my wife, but I believe I've found that perfect grouse and woodcock gun. If you look for a Regal or similar model Churchill, you should come in at a reasonable cost. I find that neutral balance is the key, as well as forming a muscle memory to effectively use a light and balanced gun.
Good luck in your search,
Karl

This is about a style of gun handling and shooting.

Churchill Premier XXV SLE : Weight = 5.15 pounds, Balance = 3 5/8" to front trigger, Unmounted swing effort = 0.86, Mounted swing effort = 4.16, Gauge = 20, Barrel length = 25", LOP = 13 5/8", 1/2 wt radius = 8.80";

Churchill XXV BLE #4614: Wt 4.04#, Bal. 3 3/4", Unmt. swng. eff. 0.84, Mtd. Swng. eff. 3.74, Gauge .410, Bbl. 25", LOP 14 1/2", 1/2 wt radius 9.82";

E.J. Churchill Imperial XXV SLE: 6.40#, 3 1/4", 1.24, 5.86, 12, 25", 15", 9.48.

Average Light Game Gun: 6.25#, 4", 1.2, 5.94, 12, 28, 14 3/4, 9.44.


The theory was that people can shoot well when they rapidly mounted the gun and "slapped" the trigger as soon as the butt was securely on the shoulder. This seems to me to be a melding of swing through with spot shooting as opposed to sustained lead. "Mr. Churchill" was a good salesman and shooting coach as this style and the guns that go with it gained a noticeable following.

The fly in the ointment is that shooting will frequently have longer shots that are better shot deliberately. Most shooters find it difficult to achieve a smooth swing with guns having low swing efforts. "Starts in a wink, stops in a wink, changes direction in a wink," is a pretty fair description of Churchill XXV handling.

A friend shoots "XXV" type guns way better than I shoot any description. Of course, he has the reflexes and muscle speed of an inspired cat.

Oh boy. What a can of worms.

First off....not many actual guns were entirely made at Churchill�s. Many first class Birmingham makers supplied guns to Churchill�s. Some of the more well known makers for example would be...AA Brown, Wright, Webley & Scott, & Baker.
Many of these guns were ordered by Churchill and �rough stocked� ready for the customers specifications and then finished stocked by Churchill�s craftsman.
A few of the unique items found on most Churchill guns are flat fences, obviously the Churchill rib, unique scroll engraving, etc.
Premier is the top sidelock, Hercules is the top of the line boxlock. Any and all options were available....including long barrels, pairs, pigeon, self/assisted openers, etc.
You�re going have to judge each gun on its own merits. Some say that the W&S built Regals from the early 80�s aren�t very good, I never felt that way personally. My 80�s Dallas auction Regal was a great gun I currently own a early 70�s rare �Viscount� XXV model that was considered a low grade hunting gun at the time. It�s well engraved, sports really nice wood, it�s very well balanced and it weighs 5 lbs 13 Oz, it�s a 12 bore too. It�s extremely fast....but it�s also well balanced and easy to shoot well.
Churchill XXV�s in whatever grade should balance a tad bit in front of the hinge pin to give the impression or illusion of swinging longer barrels. Most Spanish copies, specifically ones made by AyA are not well balanced and they can be butt heavy and whippy. I�ve never had a Spanish version of a XXV feel anything like a Churchill.

Good luck in your search.

I should have added that mine was made in 1910, and does indeed handle quick. It certainly isn't my choice for pheasants but for Michigan's U.P. north woods, it really fills the bill.
I've practiced with it to develop the needed technique and muscle memory to be able to use it to effect. Mine was made before the Churchill rib came into use in 1926, and has a concave rib. Being light and chambered for 2 1/2" shells, I use RST 1 oz. loads in it.
Karl

Although I've never owned a Churchill gun, I do own a Bernardelli Gamecock 20 gauge with 25 inch barrels. I don't shoot it much anymore because I'm into hammer guns, but I found that on a skeet field I did ok with it if I shot low gun, but poorly if I shot the gun pre-mounted. It was the only shotgun I owned for a number of years. It's lethal on preserve birds and I once went 11 for 13 with it on a dove field, but nearly all those shots were similar to high house station one on a skeet field.

I find that I shoot it better if I extend my left hand (I'm right handed) farther out the barrels than I typically place my hand on a side by side. Not sure why, but it seems to work.

Well.....If I just wanted to try one, I'd look for a AYA XXV...I had one that was included in a group of guns that I purchased. I thought the quality was good....just not my cup of tea.

"Game Shooting: A Textbook on the Successful Use of the Modern Shotgun," 1955
The Churchill Method proposes an upright stance with the feet placement almost as though you're driving. The right foot is angled about 40 degrees to the right (on the gas pedal) and the left one (on the brake) is point almost straight head. The gun stock is tucked under the armpit, with the muzzles tilting slight upward at the approximate elevation one anticipates the bird will fly, providing a full view of the field.

Helps to be short and with no neck

The traditional style of British Grey partridge shooting is left arm fully extended, reaching out and "touching"the bird.

Edward King, MD of ASI UK, is on YouTube demonstrating the style while demoing some of his wares.

The long bird pheasant shots do not use that style. Much more deliberate in their effort.

FWIW, the young royal's shoot in this fashion as well.

A 26� gun is my favorite length here in Texas hunting behind dogs for wild quail. They carry beautifully and as mentioned earlier are extremely fast when mounted from low gun on the flush. I think much of the �whilppyness� often mentioned comes from experiences with guns that are butt heavy. Properly balanced I don�t think many shooters could tell the difference between 26� and 28� lengths when mounted.