Toby, is a real font of knowledge and one can pretty well understand early on that trying to date guns (or confirm dates) by patent use numbers is going to be Quixotic. Yet, in the end Reilly proved to be so consistent in numbering his serial-numbered guns that dating actually proved to be possible, no actually highly probable and logical based on marker dates and confirmed by "sanity checks."
So this interest is two fold_
1) One hopes to find one patent maker with a consistent numbering system which might theoretically help confirm dates on guns which have previously been undateable.
2). Also, the whole business of who made what for whom, when, and who paid for the patents is understandably as confused as the whole sub-contracting business in London and Birmingham at the time.
I've been challenged to "prove" Reilly made guns...I've posted a lot of circumstantial evidence...have Library of Congress working on a couple of things...am physically reviewing census records. But the business of patent use numbers proved almost irresistible, especially since the Purdey 1104 patent progression (dated only by those 4 Reillys) look so logical.
So, I'll take Toby and others at their word...this is a confused mass of unsupportable data - some makers paid for blocks of numbers from patent holders, etc.:
- And I will always be confused by how, if say Scott build a gun "in the white" for Blanch or Reilly or H&H, he could then stamp patent use numbers on said gun. Was he charging himself? Double charging the buyer for the gun and the patents (I could see this - "you want an action...fine...you want the accessories...pay for it" (try buying a jeep without the Bose speakers, the map accessory, etc.)?
Anyway, here is a date chart for Scott patent 761 from 1878, the "climax action" (almost instantly recognizable) based on 3 Reilly guns with patent use numbers I've dated. It's an odd curve and I'm not sure I believe that SN use number from Reilly SN 25038...no photos of the Patent - it would be dead on if it were "1200."
24675 - E.M. Reilly & Co., (address not mentioned). 12 bore SxS. top lever, hammerless, back lock, non-ejector.
Scott action patent 761(no use #. (
1882)
25038 - E.M. Reilly & Co., New Oxford Sreet, London & Rue Scribe, Paris. 12 Bore Shotgun SxS. Top lever, hammerless.
Scott/Baker pat 761, use #200; Needham/Hinton sears (Pat 705) 1879 patent. (
1883)
27853 - E.M. Reilly & Co., Oxford Street, London & Paris Improved Patent. 16 bore, Shotgun SxS. Dolls Head; Side-clips; S-L,
Scott climax action Pat 761 use #2112, Perks, crystal indicators, Scott gas check Pat 617 use #1953, Whitworth Steel barrels, 1st of pair. Argo44s gun .
"Not for Ball" (
1886)
27854 - E.M. Reilly & Co., Oxford Street, London & Paris Improved Patent. 12 bore, Shotgun SxS. Dolls Head; Side-clips; S-L,
Scott climax action, Perks, crystal indicators, Whitworth steel barrels, 2nd of pair. (Buffum)
Based on the two Reilly patent use numbers close to each other at the top of the graph (there will be three because of 27853's twin)..it looks like Reilly bought a block of numbers.
But, in searching Scott patent number 761, Holland & Holland bought a bunch of them early on (first 6 years of the patent). H&H may be able to date their guns at least one of them restored by Toby and exported to USA. If it's worthwhile, I'll write to H&H and ask them for dates of those guns and how they paid for the patent and to whom/when...
Use
# 150 - H&H SN 6096 (H&H dated the gun to Lord Mandeville, possibly 1880)
Use
# 832 - H&H SN 6777 made for a "Dalgleish"
Use
#1190 - H&H SN ? allegedly from 1882 sold to a W. Place/Burnley (Check out the theoretical time line - almost dead on)
Use
#1400 - H&H SN 7616 made for a Mr. Straker
Use
#1401 - H&H SN 7381 made for Dr. Salix (no completion date)(Toby restored)
Use
#1651 - H&H SN 7610 (replacement barrels)
Actually the Scott use numbers make more sense in some respects than the H&H SN'S but since it took three years for H&H to build a gun, which were serial numbered when ordered...maybe not. (This is why Reilly won out on volume at the time - he could build a bespoke gun in 3-4 months).
