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Have you noticed that very few English boxlocks exceed 28� in length? Certainly some older BP proofed examples were 30�, but generally speaking, 28� is the maximum standard length. This observation tends to hold across all gauges.

I have been reflecting on the paucity of long barreled boxlocks for several years without reaching any conclusions. Recently, however, I was examining my 12 alongside my 20 (both 28� lightweights) and realized that the balance point on both examples was 3/4� ahead of the hinge pin. These 28 inchers are decidedly barrel heavy which promote a natural forward allowance and follow through in a hunting context. I am not confident that 29� or 30� barrels would improve the dynamics of those offered by the 28�s. My sidelocks in lightweight configurations seem to require 29� or 30� to achieve a similar dynamic feel and and tend to be several ounces heavier as compared to the comparable 28� boxlock. I am beginning to believe that the answer to the question originally posed is that makers were fond of the 28� length because they could achieve a satisfactory balance and feel for those desiring a barrel heavy hunting implement at the 28� length and decided that further length was unnecessary.

Do others feel similarly regarding the 28� boxlock? I would love to hear from anyone who owns and utilizes both 28 and longer barreled boxlocks and can speak to the relative perceived dynamics of the various barrel lengths.

The strangest feeling I ever had handling a new shotgun was in Fort William, Scotland with a light 12 Churchill XXV boxlock. Three inches the other way sure made a huge difference---weird, to me.

Not really. Actually, I've never handled a 28" box lock gun, of any nationality, that I felt was barrel heavy. I have, and shoot, boxlocks with from 26" to 32" barrel lengths, and I can honestly say dynamics have little to do with barrel length. Gun designers and barrel strikers can make a 32" gun handle almost whippy, or make a 28" barreled one handle sluggishly. Each gun has to be evaluated on it's individual handling characteristics, regardless barrel length. That said, I find myself to be much more favorable of longer 30-32" barreled doubles than shorter 26-28"ones.

Trying to come up with a standard, as you're doing with 28" guns, assumes that all shooters are built the same, with the same length arms and musculature. But, we are not. Longer armed shooters have greater leverage on the gun, and a 32" barreled gun, for them, may handle the same as a 28" barreled one in the hands of a shorter armed shooter. The possible combinations of arm length, musculature and shooting style are endless. Thus, the individual preferences of shooters. Hence, what you refer to as barrel heavy may feel entirely different to me.

SRH

Owen, I measure guns for their objective handling characteristics; much as stock fit dimensions are measured. If you measure the weight, tetter-totter balance point to (front) trigger, moment of inertia at balance point (unmounted swing effort) and calculate moment of inertia at butt (mounted swing effort) you have a complete picture of the guns handling. The only trick here is to work out how you actually wish a gun to handle for which purpose it will be used.

Considering all shooters do not use the same stock dimensions, it seems likely that all shooters will not require the same handling.

Post back if you have questions. Happy to discuss.

DDA

Owen, I find lots of 30" English box locks. All I have to do is try to find a nice one fitting my criterion of 28" or shorter and 30" barrels are suddenly all over.

I'll give it a "shot. I have 2 older 12 bore 28" barreled shotguns-- (1) L.C. Smith Pigeon Grade 7lb. 4 oz. (2) Win. M21 7 lb. 6 oz.- both have almost identical stock dims, zero cast, and recoil pads and 14&1/4" LOP-- The Smith has the straight hand (English) grip and DT-- The Win. M21 has a pg, and a SST- Both are choked imp. cyl. and mod. and have 2&3/4" chambers.

Tell you what- I am far from ever owning a "Matched Pair" of Best Guns- but I have shot both guns on preserve pheasants- a "Big Day" where our club has a morning shoot, then a nice lunch, then an afternoon shoot- (all the birds and cleaned and then donated to the local VA Hospital for a feast, by the way)-- 10 guns, we usually kill and retrieve 200 birds or more-- I use the M21 for the AM shoot, and the Pigeon Grade for the PM shoot, or-vice versa, depending on my mood. Except for the trigger confirmations, I shoot either gun equally afield.

I agree with Stan on the longer barrels however- the rest of my 12 bore Smiths have either 30" or 32" barrels- I use one of those for the Tower "European" events- and they have tighter chokes. RWTF

Every English boxlock I ever owned was 30�, except for one that was 29�.

Best,
Ted

Stan & Rocketman, You make fair points and I willingly accept the criticism. It is very difficult to generalize concerning any gun type or category of gun. My comment concerns only English guns as I do not own or have any knowledge of typical specifications or dynamics of non-English guns.

How about if I modify my working theory � � the 28 inch barrel length platform was sufficient for English makers to construct guns with a variety of Teeter-totter points MOI, etc. to satisfy the desired dynamics and handling characteristics requested by customers. Let�s examine teeter totter point as a specific variable. That is an objective measurement that can be performed on a gun and tends to indicate whether the weight is forward, balanced, or in the stock. I would argue that the 28 inch boxlock platform was sufficiently versatile to handle the varying requests from sportsman for a teeter totter point 1� ahead of the trigger to 1� behind the trigger. There was, therefore, no need to resort to longer barrels to meet the requirements of the sportsman desiring a weight forward gun.

I think Greener kinda� tried to make the same point, but, he was specifically talking 25� tubes.
I�m not a really big guy, but, 25� tubes only feel right to me on my grouse gun. I like 28� tubes on my pheasant guns, especially later in the season, or, when it is really cold.
I can offer no scientific evidence of why I like it like this. But, some guys dismiss a 25� set of barrels out of hand.

Best,
Ted

I have one 25" gun, my grouse gun and I shoot it just fine. I grab the 29" H&H for roosters though. I can and have shot a bunch of 30" guns at roosters and like them just fine. A longer LOP like mine seems to balance out better visually with slightly longer barrels.

Didn't mean my comments to be a criticism, Owen, merely observation. Sorry if I came across that way.

C.W. Billings of Glen Ridge NJ was captain of the US trap team in the 1912 Olympics. I own his 1899 12ga Francotte engraved Made for C.W. Billings on the rib. It has 26-inch barrels. I think of it as his grouse gun.

I have a pair of SKB 20s. One short (~25"), one long (~27") and I can't hit much of anything with the short gun and yet, I shoot the longer one better than almost any gun I own. I have no idea why. On the pattern board, they both shoot to the same center.

I have a Warrilow Damascus 12 that actually has an A&D number, 28" barrels.

And a W&S M700 that's the A&D design with 30" steel barrels.

The 30" swings better for me.

I stand @ 5ft 8 ins with short arms & small hands. A 14" length of pull fits me to a Tee. 28" is my favorite length of barrel, though I have shot successfully with those from 26 to 30". Do not know how many have noticed it but if one takes a box lock & a side lock, both having identical barrel lengths & an identical LOP the sidelock will normally be about an inch longer in overall length. Therefore if both have barrels of about the same weight the sidelock will have a slightly more forward balance.

The length of the bar will also show a great difference in the balance point in relation to the hinge pin. The difference in the balance point from the trigger is therefore much more meaningful.

I have sated it several times before but the gun which I have consistently shot better than any other I have ever owned is a low-grade J P Clabrough & Bro's 12 gauge back action sidelock. This gun has 28" Damascus barrels, choked 1/4 choke in /both barrels & weighs 6 lb 14 oz. It has a semi-pistol grip stock with cast-off, though I have never measured the stock dimensions, it just fits me.

Obviously there are no perfect dimensions for everyone. Shoot what fits you & what style you like. I, personally, prefer sidelocks over boxlocks any day of the week. The American Lefever Arms Co guns though technically boxlocks in all other descriptions fit the criteria of a sidelock. heir hammers sit a bit further back in the frame than a typical boxlock. then the overhead sears set the triggers back just a bit, so they end up with virtually the same fit & fell as a true sidelock, rather than that of the boxlock.

Owen, I meant no criticism at all. I have a differing point of view, objective handling data, and thought it appropriate to inject it into the discussion. My apologies if I have offended you in any way.

DDA

Stan, have you ever handled a Ruger Gold Label? In an effort to keep the weight down on those guns, they milled metal out of the receiver. The result was a gun with a very definite weight forward bias. I've owned a whole bunch of side by sides, but the vast majority of them were made for hunting rather than target shooting. I think, as you suggest, that much depends on the preference and experiences of each individual. "Barrel heavy", in my mind, defines a gun that has a balance point well in front of the hinge pin. But such a gun may not feel "barrel heavy" to those who are used to guns designed that way. They do to me, because I've owned and shot far more guns that have a balance closer to neutral (right around the hinge pin) or maybe even a little behind it--which could be described as "barrel light".

Brent, where did you find an SKB 20ga with 27" barrels? The 20's imported by Ithaca were all either 25" or 28". Have the Turks made some 27" 20ga SKB's?

Gentlemen, I take no offense at any comments made. Healthy discussion and exchange of ideas are the purposes of this board. The versatility of the 28� A&D is an idea that I have been developing for sometime. Perhaps I am The only one that has these crazy thoughts!

I misremember the lengths of SKBs. I have a long and a short, whatever lengths they happen to be. That makes for a good comparison of the effect of longer barrels since the rest of both guns are really apples to apples for comparative purposes.

Interestingly, the long barreled gun has a very noticeable banana curve to it. Someone here told me that this is purposefully done at the factory when they are regulated. Certainly, the gun shoots a nice, slightly above PoA pattern and I hit very well with it. But I can't steer that 25" gun for beans.

I agree that if shotguns were to be made in only one length, I would prefer 28" by a long ways. But nicely there is variety so I can justify some need for another gun with a different length for some obscure and perhaps imaginary reason.

As a matter of fact, I have a 27" gun headed my way right now!

I had a few guns out last night and remembered this thread which revolves around balance. I lined 3 guns up centered on the breech face first and they all lined up quite closely on the hinge pin. All are 30 inch barrels. The LOP on all is either 14" or 14 1/4".

They all weigh different and all balance differently. The Parker balances dead on the hinge pin, the LC Smith ever so slightly ahead of the pin and the Lefever about an inch forward. Interesting to note the butts don't square off, the triggers don''t line up and the pistol grips don't line up. The top gun is a Lefever s(Krupp barrels) second is a Parker (damascus) and bottom a LC Smith (damascus).

I use all the guns frequently on upland birds and shoot all well but find the Parker the least comfortable.

The OP was talking English guns with 28" barrels however I think there is much more than the barrels to determine where the balance of the gun lies and the the comfort of the gun. I have a number of English boxlocks and all are 30" barrels. They feel lighter and much more comfortable than the US guns.

King: I don't know which of these Gold Medalists is Charles Billings, representing the New York Athletic Club, nor do I know what gun he used at the 1912 Olympic Games. Ralph Spotts is the Philistine on the left holding the Remington Automatic; Jay Graham 3rd from left with a Remington Pump.



This is live action (the first minute) from the Stockholm Olympics, courtesy of Swedish Olympian Hakan Dahlby

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl...t-ts=1422579428

Interesting discussion going on here. I haven't been in the new-gun game for 20-25 years, but my experience back then was that the Birmingham/London gunmakers really preferred putting 28" barrels on a new side-by-side. I thought they probably knew something, but perhaps they were just advocating fashion?

It makes perfect sense that a gun with 28" barrels will handle differently than an identical gun except with 30" barrels. Likewise, they will have different weight and different balance point.

Remember that swing effort is measured as moment of inertia. MOI is the resultant of weight and radius from some pivot point with said radius squared. That said, the extra two inches of barrel length are in the place where they have maximum affect on MOI. Discernible difference among similar guns with differing barrel length should come as no surprise.

I expect that the Brit trade, as a nod to standardization, made 28" barrels when possible. If you didn't stand your ground on desired barrel length you got 28". Fashion was more interested in the name on the gun.

DDA

I would think 28" became the norm once nitro powders became the standard load.Longer barrels were not needed for slow burning black powder and 28" offered the best recipe to handle all classes of British sport ,giving good carryability ,recoil handling and general shootability.

IF" you load 3 drams of 3FG black behind 1 1/8 oz of shot how much difference in velocity will there be between a 30" & a 28" barrel?