doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Question Please

stanley, stanly, stanlie. Get some sleep. You are loosin' it (yeah, I know, but try not to rise to the bait this time). Try.

Meanwhile the mower and the vette both use gas (careful, might be more bait here).

Stan - Thanks and this is indeed a very uncommon SAC model; and assuming I never figure out photo posting here, I'll send them to you direct as soon as they are in my possession (I saw Terry Allen earlier this week and he made some quality photos of the frame engravings). By the way, I need to update my profile as I've not resided in my beloved home state of GA since 2013; my wife and I now live in Anderson, SC. Also, dove shooting was always my passion and an opportunity I've not had in years; so I thoroughly enjoy the tales and photos of your successful shoots. Please keep them coming.

CZ - Not sure I remember exactly which gun; a 20-bore perhaps? But this gun is not that example as it is a 12-bore located on consignment in a FL gun hop. Allow me to describe this gun to you and educate those who may be unfamiliar with the SAC A-1 Special Trap Grade. This grade was first cataloged in 1902, and as the company was out of business in early 1905, among SAC's hammerless guns, it was cataloged for the shortest period of time (2 plus years; the hammer gun had the shortest life span). At $125 suggested retail per copy, the market for such a gun was very limited. Over the course of 30 years research, I've recorded two 20-bores, one 16-bore, and five 12-bores that I can remember (A-1 was the highest grade offering for SAC' 20-bore).
Of those guns one 12-bore sold at auction for $2250 plus premium that featured 27" cut barrels and a cut stock, another 12-bore listed at Ivory beads for $3600 with a spliced stock (I was told it sold at near the asking), and the 16-bore listed on GunsAmerica for $5500 and sold the next day. The 16-bore was by far the finest of the lot condition wise, but had an unsightly piece broken off the barrel lug (it was a 3rd Model with the sliding cocking hook). I was able to afford this gun and paid a fraction of what the above guns sold for. This gun is a 12-bore with 30" Krupp barrels, solid wood, and is absolutely untouched as to after-market repairs and alterations. The gun is tight, and the only mechanical issue I've found with the gun is that the hold-open catch is not working. I'm hoping it's just stuck, as not a gunsmith the last thing I want to do is remove the false plate to access this device; then be unable to reinstall those crazy hammer springs.
Of the few A-1 Grades I've recorded, this example features the most unusual engraving. The catalog depictions and description of this grade show bird scene engravings; two quail on one side, and two snipe or woodcock on the other. This was SAC's lowest grade offering featuring game scenes, and pointing dog scenes were reserved for Grades B, C, and D; BUT this example was special ordered with a pointing dog, a setter, on the left side of the frame. The scene depicts a point on one or two quail under some bush, and a rabbit running away from the crime scene in the foreground; not an uncommon occurrence based on my quail hunting experiences in GA. This scene is also unusual in that the dog points towards the shooter and not towards the muzzles as is typical with SAC pointing dogs. Another unusual feature is that the floor plate is engraved with scroll in a fashion similar to most Grade B guns I've seen, just less coverage; and the gun and maker's name and address, normally engraved on the trigger plate, is finely engraved on both sides of the narrow front portion of the frame. Otherwise it seems to be typical A-1 motif engraving for the most part with two quail on the right frame side and a three bird covey scene in an oval on the guard bow, which is filed in a convex contour identical to the guard bows on B,C, and D Grades. It features modern stock dimensions and the wood is very nicely figured although finishes have turned dark obscuring its figure and color.

As FYI, I asked the original question in the hopes that I could "lighten" the frame a bit to better see the engraving.
Best,
Tom

simichrome is a non abrasive metal polish that will brighten most metals without marking the surface. it was mentioned in a DGJ article several years ago. fellow had upgraded/restored a WR gun and the case colors came back too pronounced to let the engraving show to best advantage. he commented that judicious use of simichrome allowed a very controlled reduction in the colors. simichrome was once available in most motorcycle shops.

Simichrome is found in our local Ace Hardware. BE VERY careful with it as it takes off case colors extremely fast (just a few swipes will do a lot), but as graybeard says, it will do a really nice job of bring the engravings out of the colors.

Tom,you're killing' me.

The gun we talked about was the one at Cowen's auction house w/ the LOM case.27" barrels as I recall.

I prefer the shorebirds engraving on the A-1's.


Getting back to cleaning off oxidized oils,

Try window cleaner first. A little ammonia cleans off lots of grunge.

Don't go scrubbing with abrasives until you've exhausted simple chemical applications.

Acidic compounds will make a mess of it, so No Vinegar!

If you look online, you'll find people cleaning brass in ultrasonic cleaners, testing all kinds of different liquids.
Automatic trans fluid even has it's place.

Spic and Span is great.
Simple Green

But you should be able to dissolve oxidized oils, and the outermost metal oxides chemically before using abrasion.

It's the least invasive way to proceed in my view.

Double tap
Sorry

Not much to report on our most recent dove season. The weather was crazy warm and the dove numbers were way down. The September season was pretty decent, but it went downhill from there. I only killed 73 over the course of all three "seasons".

I'm thankful for that, but it's way off my pace.

Hope y'all are doing well in Anderson. SRH

"The gun we talked about was the one at Cowen's auction house w/ the LOM case.27" barrels as I recall."

CZ - Yes, I do remember that gun! I don't remember you telling me you were bidding; but I do remember telling you that I knew a collector in AL that would be, then learned later that he had been outbid. When the auction was over the winning Florida bidder looked me up some how and gave me a call; said that, after reading my articles in the DGJ and learning this graded SAC gun was up for sale, was bound and determined he'd have that gun regardless. Obviously I was happy for him and hope this individual is continuing to be as happy with the gun as he was on learning he was the auction winner. I still have photos of that gun, sn #34578, a late vintage Third Model with sliding cocking plate. This was a very clean gun; but in addition to cut barrels and shortened stock, it appeared to have excessive drop. The A-1 Grade I've secured is a Second Model with fixed cocking hooks and features noticeably more engraving that #34578. Based on my research Second Model SAC guns, with a few exceptions, are much better engraved than Third Model guns. I'm assuming these differences are attributable to rising costs and are attempts to reduce build costs as much as possible.

Back in the 1970s, I bought a SAC grade a 20 gauge with 28 Krupp Steel barrels. I had the automatic ejectors with a switch in the forend so you could cut them on or off at will. It weighed a full 7 lbs was full choked in both barrels but I could shoot it reasonably well on some clay birds thrown with a "Trius" portable trap.

THEN I ad occasion to look inside the action. I have never seen such a rough finished gun before or since. Parts looked as if they had been hewed out with a foot Adz. The insides of a Birmingham proofed W Richards (Low-grade J P Clabrough) looked like a Purdey in comparison.

I fixed whatever it was I had to take it apart for, Buttoned it back up & traded it off at first opportunity & never looked back. I still have no desire to ever own another SAC shotgun.

I understand quality fell off near the end of production, mine must have been the last. I sincerely hope yours is an earlier one & much better finished internally. Mine looked decent on the outside, but a view of the inner works just made you sick at your stomach for what was supposedly a ""Quality" double.

2-Piper
My observation with SAC guns, and again with some exceptions, is that the best engraved, fitted, and finished guns are in the 25-34XXX serial number range. Most SAC 20-bores were made late in production and I have a project Grade A 20 in the 37XXX number range that would match your experience. This gun has much less engraving than a 16-bore A Grade I have in the 28XXX range and it's not very pretty inside. The subject A-1 Grade on the other hand, #31666, is finished very well internally; and all the lock-work (hammer springs, sears, cocking rods, etc.) are highly polished (look like chrome) with zero machining marks. And although this gun hasn't received the best of care over the past 115 plus years, I found these parts free of rust or staining and still bright when I took the gun apart today. The "newest" SAC gun I have in terms of not being used is a 1900 Grade OO extractor model; a $29 suggested retail gun, and SAC's lowest grade hammerless gun. This gun was used a time or two then left forgotten in a mutton leg leather case for decades; but when it is examined it is a study in what must have been SAC quality at the turn of the century. Wood to metal finish is flawless, as are checkered panels, and every screw is perfectly aligned. Given that the screw slots remain untouched, I haven't taken this gun apart; nor do I have plans to do so. Consider SAC guns to be like most other American shotguns as some production periods were better than others so that each gun must be judged on its own merits. Bottom line is that some SAC guns are works of art, and a collector shouldn't simply dismiss the entire lot based on one example.