doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Interesting gun for you American double collectors

https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-f...un_id=101375626

I grew up not far from where this gun was made and my first double was an Ithaca Flues model, so Emile Flues has always been an interesting guy to me. I wonder about how this gun works. Pretty neat gun.

Not sure how much effort Emil Flues contributed but at a minimum he sourced it >> in the white << from R�merwerke A.G. / R�hmerwerke in Suhl. The Church Windows & drop points look very Germanic.


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Do you recognize the design or do you see manufacturers marks that tell you this? Continental guns are not my strong point.

Steve;

I wonder also if those are "rising bites"?

Yes touchmarks & those circles that remain on the flats are bore/gauge marks that were not worked off, which accompanied the remainder of the full / typical regiment of typical marks.


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Interesting circles below the strikers / firing pins?


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

I believe, and I am no expert on Teutonic guns, those are a type of Kiersten(sp?) cross bolt. Somewhat similar to a Greener except they come in from both sides.

I wondered about those as well.

R�merwerke had a formidable machine shop from 1888 & I would say most of the machining was performed there.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

As a sidebar, seems many notable concerns were involved w/ the R�mer & Compagnie machine works. Names like Dornheim, Funk, Greifelt, Jung, F.W. Ke�ler & heirs and Paul Stadelmann were heavily involved. Remember Paul Stadelmann was a student of Otto Bock and became a principle in E. Schmidt & Habermann. I have very strong suspicions that the
>>Clamshell / Muschel-Verschluss / Stabil-Verschluss Action << were sourced there. Most of the members @ one time offered one.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Mr. Schuknecht gives the GM was the inventor of the Beast - >>Clamshell / Muschel-Verschluss / Stabil-Verschluss Action <<(If I read it correctly)?


>>The next to last guns shown in the photo gallery in our archive is a double rifle made by the Heym Company in Suhl.The guns with the �Clamshell Action� (Muschel Verschluss or Stabil Verschluss) could have been made by several makers, among them Robert Sch�ler (RS) in Suhl, the inventor, Gebr�der Merkel (GM) in Suhl, Oskar Merkel in Suhl (Merco) and Bernhard Merkel in Suhl (Bemesu). All were of best quality and some had the maker�s mark that is shown above after their name on the underside of the barrels.Foerster guns are now very desirable to gun collectors and bring very high prices when sold by good auctioneers like Julia in Maine.<<

http://www.germanhuntingguns.com/about-the-makers/gun-makers-dealers-f-j/
scroll down to Foerster.....

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

I would have to dig, but I believe that is some variant of the novel addition by Frederick J. Abby which found protection under U.S. of A. Patent Nr. 114,081 of 1871. I think even Greener commented that Rigby adopted and improved the contrivance or George Thackeray Abbey's contribution which found protection under U.S. of A. Patent Nr. 87,814 of 1869?

Per the website, are we sure that the adornment is that of Kornbrath? With the menacing muzzle / crosshatching of the muzzle, I'd say that that adornment points to a mechanic in Suhl?


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Abbey patent model, Abbey patent , Abbey patent gun. Actually Foster and Abbey patent. Their rising bite was about 10 years before the Rigby Bissell.

Lovely post Mr. Hallquist. Many thanks for indulging me. Any comment on the Kornbrath engraving?


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Also with those >>Cat Eyes<<, I would hazard a guess that the ejectors are of the Deeley Box platform. All wrapped up, this may point to some involvement by the remnants of Schoverling, Daly & Gales in the sourcing for Flues?


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Raimey, the engraving, although I cannot say for sure, looks like something Kornbrath would do. I do believe other Flues guns have been attributed to Kornbrath, and I think the Kornbrath files in Cody show some Flues guns.

Well, has anyone seen Kornbrath work where he added crosshatching to a muzzle? Is anyone of the opinion that Kornbrath performed the tap, tap, tap on this muzzle?

I have serious reservations that Kornbrath added that to a longarm/ w/ an English stock sold in the U.S. of A.?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

SKB, I think it's Kersten, ( not that I give a toss but I have seen them on German guns, , I thought some had rectangular through bolts, but I think now it's just the shape of the protruding bolts that is rectangular, & not the "Hole",
cheers
franc

Although for the moment I'm not hung on any certain bolting system, but look how wide those side bars are in the Doll's Head Well and there doesn't appear to be a pathway for them to move left or right? Does the top rib extension have a portal thru it? And too, look @ that large radius @ the standing breech - water-table interface. Below that is a lot of >>Banjo Work<< that accomplishes something. Last there are those circular protrusions below the strikers?

Cheers,


Raimey
rse

I believe you are correct. Looks as those those locking bars move vertically. I failed to notice that earlier. I too wonder about the circles on the breech. That would be an interesting gun to disassemble.
Steve

The rising bite reminds me of an upscale Manufrance Ideal. Also in the Ideal vain, could the breech circles be relics from removed loaded indicators? Maybe some German gunsmith was Ideally inspired.

Markus

Lovely pun. Hum, I looked @ Ithaca's offerings and paused @ the Knick but it just might be some >>Ideal<< variant?

https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=280646

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

How would you know who did the Engraving, from the fotos the seller presented. Emil Flues lived in Saginaw, MI-- the Emile Flues mentioned, I am not sure. Der Fuchs

I believe Mr.FLUES lived in several locations throughout his life and Buffalo was one of the places he resided.

This particular rising bite EF Flues shotgun is in fact engraved by Flues...which sort of dates it before c1919 shortly after his association with Rudolph Kornbrath began to grow...My guess is it was made just after Newton Rifle Corp hit the skids...surely this gun was made on Seneca St...the person has it listed as Kornbrath engraved but it's not, it's far rarer but maybe not more desirable than Kornbrath engraved ...it will be interesting to see when Haille Selassi's gun surfaces whether it's Flues engraved or Kornbrath engraved...there was a discussion here sometime back about what Flues engraving looked like...well here it is for all to see.......seems to me there was one report that Flues worked for Baker Gun Co, as an engraver, between his hitch with Ithaca, which ended c1909 and his hitch with Newton Rifle Corp which began c1915...yes...this means Emil was friends and associates of Charles Newton, Fred Adolph, Roudolph Kornbrath, Frank Hollenbeck, as well as Selassi (aka Ras Tafali...and all at the same time1918-1922...I wish the gun was mine

Robert,
Welcome back, I hope you are well.

I think Flues finished off a bunch of guns just to make a living.
Various forms pop up every so often.

Always nicely finished.

https://sites.google.com/site/iroquoisarmscollectors2/home/emil-flues-buffalo-ny

good look at some flues guns.

Nice flues engraving the top or first overunder is much different then the rest it's much nicer looks like a different hand.mc

Clapper,
Thank you...your observation is correct...Flues did in fact finish off many guns...one Marlin and one Ballard...and at least 62 Parker upgrades for a guy named Brobiel (?SP) of Brobiel & Canazzi marina at the historic Commodore Perry site...it has also been reported that he did many Parker upgrades for members of the Cherry Hill Country Club (Canada)...all this took place from c1930 - 1948 when he was found collapsed at the bus stop across from his shop on Niagara St...his shop was a two story bldg attached to Brobiel & Canazzi Marina..Paul Brobiel told me that when his father died (Emil's 18 year employer) that he sold 62 "fake" Parkers and one real Parker to one southern California person" Which we now call Pachmyer upgrades...at least some of them....None of the guns discussed here are of imported actions...when Flues imported an action it was the whole gun, German proof marks and all, it's a well known fact that when Flues was crowded out of Ithaca Gun Co in 1909 that a Ithaca executive provided him with a good supply of Krupp steel barrels so that he could resume his livelihood as before he was asked to uproot his family and move to Ithaca...the gun being discussed...hope this link works...

https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-f...un_id=101375626

note the ejector axles on the left and right sides of the fore end wood is like Linder's steel eye ejector axles also note that the Manufrance Ideals rising bite is controlled by a trigger bow lever and this Flues shotgun is top lever lock up...a complete departure from the Manufrance design...I think the Ideal rising bite
lock up is older than this gun

Hi Robert. Nice to see you posting.

First production of the MF Ideal design was 1888.

Thank you canvasback...I'm still a little gun shy about posting here...Do you think Flues was maybe trying to tweak the Ideal lock up? This gun was about the time of the James Packard gun (commissioned)I've not seen this gun...and a decade ish before the Tom Mix gun...(Winchester museum, again, I've not seen the Mix gun either) ...so I don't know if there are other rising bite Flues guns out there...I know of one other...or did it change hands and maybe it's the same gun

Those small round rods below each firing pin hole?.. I dont think they are any bolt/lock up design, as they would seem to protrude into the open chamber area,, could they be cocking indicators of some kind...if the chamber is empty they come out, if full they stay in ?....it is an odd place for somerhing like that...
cheers
franc

There's a lot of banjo work on this example that we are not fully viewing.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

You lost me. What's "banjo work"...Geo

I think those hole are simply plugged hole from a breast drill...remember, Flues had no electricity, no milling machine, no lathe...he carved receivers with a breast drill, cold chisels, and files...I checked my 1910 made Flues sxs and although the receivers are nearly identical. there are no plugs under the firing pins...so I'm assuming those plugged holes are related to the rising bite lock up...the seller has not shown the bites in the retracted position , so I can't say for sure that it's a rising bite or just another snap action (more likely)...the sideways W along with the K are likely the touchmarks of Sam Koch, Flues apprentice who would have been a late teen at the time this gun was made
I too would like a cler description of "banjo work"

SKB / Bushweld

I think you were correct right from the beginning...it's probably not a rising bite at all...the rib extension dolls head looks like the rib extension on the 1910 gun minus the two bites...

That sideways dig about "banjo work" has been stuck under my craw for a few days now...it sounds like some unnecessary insult referencing Deliverance (the movie)...Emil Flues was arguably one of the greatest gunsmiths America ever produced...he put Ithaca on the map...
I forgot to mention that Flues worked closely together with Harry Pope...he also worked on the Thomas Flyer...oh yeah...Flues was the final fitter assembler of every Newton Rifle Corp's rifles including the one ans only Newton leverbolt (not Meachem Newtons)...in fact, Rudolph Kornbrath's personal shotgun was handmade by Flues...it now resides in the Winchester museum...Flues designed the most commercially successful SXS manufactured in America...if those accomplishments are banjo work, then I'm anxious to see that posters venerated work from on high...he is so lofty that he can look down on Emil Flues as some bush league gunsmith...if you show yours, I'll show mine

I was raised up hearing the term as referring to fancied up work that added no real substance to something, and made it possibly more prone to break downs. I have never seen an actual definition of the term.

It has nothing to do with the scenes in "Deliverance", the movie. I believe it to be a fairly localized term, Southern in general.

Grandaddy bought Grandma a new 1957 Cadillac. It had a device mounted on the center top of the dashboard (I believe it was called the "autonic eye") that was supposed to dim the headlights automatically when it "saw" the approaching headlights of another car. It had a sensitivity adjustment knob on the back. It was pretty much useless. It would dim the lights when you rounded a curve and the headlights hit a white painted fence. Grandaddy called it banjo work.

SRH

Robert, I would suggest you completely misunderstand Ellenbr�s comment. Just the kind of phrasing he uses and not an unsavoury reference as you imagine.

I thought maybe so....so I asked and another asked him to clarify what the term meant....To even infer that Flues cobbled up some Romerwerke receiver is NOT THE WAY FLUES SHOULD GO DOWN IN HISTORY......
I didn't even mention that he was granted 6 or 7 US patents for shotgun features...

Now that I've listed just some of Flues accomplishments, his patents, guns made for celebrities and royalty. his Ithaca legacy...is there a chance that ellnbr was completely unaware of any of Flues accomplishments ? The name Flues was right there..ellnbr was throwing shade.no one interpreted it any other way...that's why he wouldn't respond to either request to clarify the tern...
Cadillac dimmer!!! (big fat whopper) let me put on my hip waders...I don't know what that term means, it's just a saying my grand pappy used to say about his push button Plymouth dashboard

I appreciate you standing up for ellnbr, but let him eat some well deserved crow...I do it a lot...it's easy...if you close your eyes, it tastes like seagull