doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Opinions on the 1st Generation H&H Royals?

Looking for opinions and general info

You may want to review this article 1st Gen Royal. They are solid guns, but nothing close to the later style actions.

Ken

I really like the looks of the 16ga pictured in the article

Ut oh
� �Duck bill� style locks were seen as a cheap, out of fashion and not pleasing to the eye.�
Not my words, I love em!

H&H 1st gen Royal locks are �dipped edge� and are extremely classy. Same with Rigby house style locks. �Dipped edge�, not duck bill. It�s all in how it�s filed up or executed...my Lancaster Model A has �mutton chop� shaped locks....again, extremely classy and very well executed.

Yeah I�ve totally stole this thread, but I have to disagree, show me a reference for �Duckbill� locks? They are dipped edge locks either the Rogers action or modified or improved Rogers action. They were the cats meow in the late 1880�s and widely used throughout London and Birmingham. They were improved upon as all things are, aside from the �bespoke� makers who developed their own locks there is nothing written about them being on low quality guns or �widely� out of fashion, they were used on guns of all grades, besides show me a low grade/quality keepers sidelock from a London maker? My guess is you will find them on Best to mid grade guns.

Well, you�re wrong. Sorry if you felt I was personally attacking your gun, I wasn�t. It is what it is. Gunman who was a worker in trade agrees with me regarding your gun, as would anyone who is familiar with vintage British shotguns and a student of the British gun.

Do yourself a favor and do a lot more reading and learning.

I�m not worried about my gun, I could care less it was a sum total of 550.00. I know what it is, I don�t make any illusions to it. Learning and reading that�s what I�m doing, never heard of anyone learning without asking questions, unless you are the final say to all things British then I would say we are both students! If not then throw me a bone and help by answering my question? Besides what part of my statement is so outrageous that you have to be rude? Is it because I disagreed with you?

Were some replies deleted?
It seems an imaginary conversation is occurring.

In matters like this, the marketplace has already decided.

It�s never important whether I disagree or not.

It was a competitive marketplace, very demanding.

I have worked on (and sold) quite a few 1st Type H&H Royals and think they are generally nice guns. Of course they are subject to the trials of the TLC (or not) that they have been granted but given their age (120-135 yoa) I think they have survived remarkably well, which says a lot for the quality of materials and craftsmanship.
They suffer from the usual problems of old guns: pitting on internal surfaces, especially wood to metal; poorly finished replacement parts and generally rubbish servicing once past their original owner.
I personally like the dip-edge lock plates but then I am a fan of Blanch BA SL's so I am well over to the 'dark side'!
The ejectors are a bit of a pain as the coil springs are by design 'over stressed' for the application so alternately go soft or snap. However with modern coil spring steel, if you can find the size, they are as cheap as chips to replace as often as you want. The same can not be said of the 'Southgate' ejector springs on many later ejectors.
They may have either the Scott type 'Block Patent Safety' interceptor sear (actually a Needham & Hinton patent no. 706 of 1879) or the 'Spear' interceptor sear much loved by the Robertson workshops, there seems no rhyme or reason why one has either type. Both work well if not butchered by the ignorant.
They are always talked about as being Birmingham guns and, although I have no doubt that Birmingham did have a hand in some of their production, quite a few I have restored have been stamped on the action 'JR' for John Robertson, owner of Boss & Co to be, so they were certainly actioned etc by Robertson workshops in Soho, London. As Robertson's workshops were a major stocker, finisher and screwer to the London Maker's, it begs the question of what Birmingham actually did in these cases.
Given their age, most were barrelled in Damascus and these got shot out or pitted through lack of care so have been sleeved or replaced. As the time when this was considered economically viable for these early Royals coincided with the fashion of 28" barrels and shorter, most have been reduced from their original 29-30" to 26-28". Also, Hollands records of the 60's & 70's are pretty patchy so it is often difficult to know if the work was done in house or by the trade. Given that many of these guns were originally barrelled in Birmingham (and made before H&H had any kind of manufacturing facility), is a Birmingham rebarrelling in effect 'by the Maker's'! (I jest but this preoccupation with 'rebarrelled by the 'Makers' does seem a little silly since much 'in-house' rebarrelling was (and is) done by people outside the establishment!).
I will continue to buy and sell these early Royals as I think they offer one of the best and most economic ways of getting a taste of 'London Best'.