doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com unusual French shotguns...questions

Greybeard, what grade or model number is your Ideal?

[quote=graybeardtmm3
now, i would pose another question; having looked up the geographical locations of the makers....why would a maker in La Ferte-Mace send guns a much greater distance to be proofed in st. etienne, when paris is so close by?

best regards,
tom [/quote]

Because the gun was fitted, proofed, and sent, unstocked, and in the white, to a gunmaker who finished it, sometimes years after it showed up.

Best,
Ted

GB, we've discussed these types of gun several times. The history of them is always interesting as is the geography. Saint Etienne made and proofed the actions and barrels. The actions-guns were finished in little hardware sporting-goods armeurier's all over France.

For example here is one, an o/u that I'd still like to obtain from the owner:
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubb...2782#Post452782

If you need help with French gun terminology, here is a vocabulary list we compiled a couple of years ago:
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=480959

And here is a thread we all contributed to on dating early 20th Century French shotguns - its got dating charts for Darne, and Manufrance and discuss the only known dated guns coming out of Saint-Etienne at the time, Didier-Drevet barrels.
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=484199

And by the way, when you do find a gun made in Saint-Etienne, whether by a known maker or "artisanal"...the name of the retailer can often be found in this location:

Now we've gone down the "What is 'Helice' " rabbit hole several times.
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=497317&page=1
I believe that the letter written to Larry many years ago by V-C is disingenuous and the true experts from the French Saint-Etienne gun trade such as "Neltir" who used to post on the French gun site Passionlachasse.Fr agree. V-C simplified the top lever and added a 4th lock. But he never invented or patented the term "Helice" which is generic. A gun with "Helice" on the key is not guaranteed to be made on a V-C patent and one has no way of knowing exactly what's in such a gun except by looking.

Let me repost what "Neltir" had to say about the matter, just for fun. (We're not going to resolve this and will just agree to disagree....until someone takes apart 20 "Helice" guns to check on it: Here is a translation of his post just for the record - the translation is not literal but I've tried to make it in understandable English so it catches the sense of the original.

Bonsoir a tous , je me permet d'intervenir sur ce post que j'ai parcouru avec beaucoup d'attention et de ....rires parfois !

Good morning everybody. Permit me to intrude in this thread that I have followed with great interest and with�.uproarious laughter

Deja je vais me permettre de dire rendons a H�lice ce qui est a lui !!!

Please permit me to relate what exactly is a Helice

En effet ,j'ai lu que Verney Carron �tait l'inventeur du fusil H�lice ::: que le fusil h�lice �tait une marque de fusils lisses :::: que h�lice �tait ��

I have read that Verney Carron was the inventor of the �Helice gun,� that Helice was a maker of long arms�.that Helice was...whatever�.

Et bien d�ja je vais vous dire une chose , c'est que H�lice est un syst�me de fermeture d'une arme basculante . Ensuite que les premieres fermetures des armes a bascules �taient r�alis�es au moyen d'un verrou pivotant a h�lice ...d'ou le fameux h�lice qui vous fait raconter tout et n'importe quoi !!!Excusez moi si j' y vais un peu fort,mais je pense que si Casimir Lefaucheux lisait ce post il deviendrait ....fou de rage !!! qui n'a jamais vu son grand p�re ou son voisin articuler le fameux levier sous la longuesse du vieux fusil a broche ����:::le levier qui commandait le verrou "HELICE " ,ce fameux h�lice !!!

Well I am going to tell you all a few things; first that Helice is a closing system for a center-break long arm. The first closing system for center-break long arms was a lock pivoting on a helix screw; That�s the famous Helice which you all have been saying whatever about. Excuse me if I am speaking a little strongly, but I think that if Casimir Lefaucheux were reading these posts he would become crazy with rage. Who has not seen one�s Grandfather or one�s neighbor manipulate the famous lever under the fore-stock of an old pin-fire rifle? The lever which controlled the �HELICE� (helical) lock, that�s the famous helice!!

Ensuite ce fameux syst�me dit "H�lice" grace au progr�s r�alis� sur les Hammerless notament fut transpos� si je puis dire sur le haut du boitier de culasse sous forme d'une clef qu e vous avez tous manipul�s ,ceci a cause de l'adoption de diff�rents verrous horizontaux et verticaux afin de reporter ces verrous plus loinde l'axe de bascule afin d'avoir une plus grande r�sistance a la pression , ceci encore a cause des adoptions de nouvelles poudres plus puissantes .

The famous system called �Helice,� thanks to progress on the �hammerless� system, was moved onto the top of the breech in the form of a key which you have all used. This was because of the adoption of different horizontal and vertical locks in order to move these locks further from the axis of the break in order to achieve a greater resistance to pressure, a need caused by the adoption of new more powerful powders.

Il en reste n�anmoins que le syst�me h�lice restait appliqu� parce que la fameuse clef par son mouvement lat�ral circulaire poussait un m�canisme semblable a l'ancien levier de dessous de longuesse des temps anciens (dits anciens ) et verrouillait le basculement et de l� naquis l'id�e de verrous multiples possibles sur divers points afin de renforcer la r�sistance au d�part du coup de feu :

The helices (helical) closing system remained up-to-date because of that famous key, which by its lateral circular movement pushed a mechanism similar to the old under-lever along the fore-stock of olden days, locking the break. Thus was born the idea of multiple possible locks at different points in order to reinforce the ability of the gun to fire heavier cartridges.

Et alors ? et bien c'est monsieur Webley qui en 1894 mis au point un syst�me a triple verrou ,syst�me qui dure encore de nos jours sur beaucoup de fusils de chasse ....et m�me sur les canons de tr�s fort calibre militaires !!!! :un d�bordement de la t�te de clef agit directement par friction et par pression sur une encoche a forme de gradin,taill�e en saillie dans le prolongement de la bande des canon et qui passe a l'ouverture et la fermeture sous la t�te de clef !

It was Mr. Webley who in 1894 created a system of triple locks, a system which continues to be used to this day on many shotguns and even on barrels of very strong military calibers. An overthrust of the head of the key acted directly by friction and pressure on a notch in the shape of a step, cut and projecting in the prolongation of the band of the barrels, which passed on opening and closing under the head of the key.

ET alors ? Verney Carron? et bien lui il a simplement modifi� ce g�nial syst�me HELICE a triple verrou de Webley en syst�me encore plus fiable a quadruple verrou dit H�licobloc de Verney Carron en d�posant un brevet en 1896 ! Jamais le syst�me H�lice n'a �t� brevet� , mais largement frapp� et �voqu� sur les boitiers en y accolant parfois les initiales du constructeur de l'arme !

Verney Carron? well, all he did was simply modify the triple lock HELICE system of Webley to a system still more reliable with quadruple locks called HELICOBLOC on which Verney Carron took out a patent in 1896! The actual Helice system was never patented, but for the most part the (generic) word was engraved and raised up on the breech of the gun, often including the initials of the builder of the gun.

Alors SVP ne dites pas que Verney Carron a invent� le H�lice ceci cela ! le syst�me de fermeture Dit H�lice existait d�ja depuis ..... 100 ans !avec la venue au monde du fusil a bascule !!!! et que le syst�me du double verrouillage trouva sa naissance vers 1880 et la combinaison de cette fameuse clef de dessus de boitier appel�e CLE TOP LEVER par le fameux Webley ,permit d'all�ger consid�rablement l'est�thique du fusil car dot�e de son verrou coulissant sous les planches de bascule en employant le fameux syst�me de fermeture HELICE !

So please don�t say that Verney Carron invented the Helice. The helical system of closing the breech called Helice already existed for 100 years since the brith of the center break long gun. A system of double locking was born around 1880, and the combination of that famous key above the breech called the �TOP LEVER KEY� by Webley, permitted the esthetic of the long gun to be considerably improved by being equipped with his sliding lock using the famous HELICE closing system.

Et alors ? et bien sachez qu'un seul fusil fut brevet� sous la marque HELICE ,c'est le fusil fabriqu� par Marcel Philippon et qu'ensuite une "Foultitude "de fabriquants d'armes baptis�rent leur arme a l'aide d'un pr�fixe HELICE et arborant parfois sur leurs boitiers le fameux HELICE . D'ailleurs en voici une liste prise sur un livre de Maurice Forissier ,livre qui m'avait �t� offert par mes anciens coll�gues d'�cole d'armurerie lors de mon d�part en retraite en 2007 .

It is well known that only one single long gun was patented under the mark �HELICE; It was the long gun fabricated by Marcek Philippon. And following that a multitude of arms makers baptized their gun with the aid of a prefix HELICE while adding their names or initials onto the breech or combining it with HELICE. Below is a list (of various uses of HELICE combined with names of gun makers) taken from a book by Maurice Forissier, which was given to me by my old workmates/collegues from the armorie school when I retired in 2007.

A question I have is why all the different names atop the toplever? Did each maker file for protection for a different >>Helice<< name to put atop their wares?


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Nope...the word was not protected. Makers just used it assuming nobody would know exactly what it was but it looked cool and besides it did sort of resemble VC's stuff. I figure it was kind of like the word "Organic" in supermarkets these days.

Alright then, a follow-up question: did any of the words find protection by a maker? It does seem that only the Helice / toplevers with the >>stop<< had the advertising atop the toplever?

Yeah, organic just means the farmers haven't sprayed herbicides in a couple years on their farms.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

I really think engraving a top key became a style thing for Saint-Etienne and I'm willing to give V-C credit for that (haven't really looked to see what was going on style-wise there pre 1896). For instance, here's my 1920's "Wonder"....



And another of the same ilk:

graybeard,
I have sent you a PM.
Brent

[/quote]

ET alors ? Verney Carron? et bien lui il a simplement modifi� ce g�nial syst�me HELICE a triple verrou de Webley en syst�me encore plus fiable a quadruple verrou dit H�licobloc de Verney Carron en d�posant un brevet en 1896 ! Jamais le syst�me H�lice n'a �t� brevet� , mais largement frapp� et �voqu� sur les boitiers en y accolant parfois les initiales du constructeur de l'arme !

Verney Carron? well, all he did was simply modify the triple lock HELICE system of Webley to a system still more reliable with quadruple locks called HELICOBLOC on which Verney Carron took out a patent in 1896! The actual Helice system was never patented, but for the most part the (generic) word was engraved and raised up on the breech of the gun, often including the initials of the builder of the gun.

[/quote]

Interesting. What V-C did was indeed "simply" enough to secure a French patent on an improved version of the Scott spindle, as even M. Neltir grudgingly admits. No, V-C didn't patent the word "Helice", although they did get trademark protection ("marque deposee") on several names using some version of the name, as mentioned in M. Verney-Carron's letter. The question then becomes whether guns bearing the name Helice (or some version of it not bearing "marque deposee" protection) use the same quadruple lock system as V-C used (after the patent expired), or if they are simply using the Scott spindle while lacking the 4th lock that V-C added. That's a question I can't answer.