doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com unusual French shotguns...questions

I bring it to the surface from time to time just to get you to post a mosaic of all the toplevers with the proverbial stops. Any idea why all contain the >>Stop<< and its purpose?


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

What Verney-Carron did was essentially trademark the names "Helice Grip" and "Helicobloc". At first glance, I thought the lower right hand photo in Argo's post was a V-C gun. But the maker likely slipped that one through by adding another P: "Gripp".

Vouzelaud was another French gunmaking family that participated in the Resistance.

Raimey, at least we're getting someplace. Definition so far:

"Helice action: An unpatented center-break action made in Saint Etienne, France, characterized by a top lever opening system, a prominent left-stop for the lever, the internals of which are unknown and with "Helice" in some variant or form engraved on the top lever key."

So far it looks like a French advertising variant of "Choke Rectifie," or "Canons de Surete" or "Acier Hercule" etc.

Anyway, Joyeux Noel and Bonne Annee to all you guys.

Retour a� l� envoyeur, Argo.

Best,
Ted

Kids have left...finally...sitting here quietly...thinking about, curious about, what in the world is the "A. Couillard" signature between the generic Saint-Etienne stamps "Choke Rectifie" and "Portee Garantie"?



Where did that name come from? It's on more than one gun in the same place. Was Couillard a member of the Banc d'�preuve de Saint-�tienne? A barrel borer? A barrel maker? I've searched all sorts of variants in the French press...rien, niente, nada.
-- Have you Francophile gun owners ever seen a name in the middle of that sort of stamp?
-- Who puts that kind of stamp on French barrel flats? I've seen variants forever - some just say "Grand Prix" etc.
-- Is it an official stamp?
-- What does it represent? We've dismissed these stamps as un-understandable publicity jargon meaning nothing...is this a correct assumption?
-- Was there some sort of test run by the Banc d'�preuve to say simply (via the "Choke Rectifie") stamp, "Yep, it's choked," in lieu of "Non Pour la Balle"?



-- And where is Wild Cattle?

Argo44:

As far as what I have read, those choke marks & steel types are not proof facility stamps but rather advertising applied by a maker. I for one think that since proof wasn't obligatory that the mechanics wanted to assure the end user that they were purchasing & using a quality product? But then again, I do wonder which end user read the adverts & actually could decipher & understand the mechanic applied touchmarks. But I believe you do have a valid question: what type mechanic applied the advertising and when? I would say the mechanic was a tube guy. And a follow up, where are the stamps residing today?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

I have seen other names so permit me to dig a bit.....


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Back in 2002, I received a letter from Claude Verney-Carron, then president of the company. Concerning Helice, he wrote:

"Helice was the name of the locking system patented by my great grandfather Jean Verney-Carron at the beginning of the 20th century. When the patent expired and fell in the public field a lot of gun makers from Saint-Etienne adopted the system for their own use. That's why you can find a lot of brands derived from the word HELICE. Verney-Carron used the following ones: Helice Grip, Helice 33, Helistop, Helicobloc, Heliduplex."

It looks very much like what happened when the original Darne patent expired and various other makers started producing Darne clones.

Larry,
I think the Darne story was actually enabled by the manufacturer. The factory came out with new patents in 1909, and cataloged the old patents for some years. Clones are always 1894 patent R model guns, and never V models, or, 1909 patent R models. It would have been easy for the factory to sell in the white and proofed actions and barrels out the back door, while producing and selling the new patent guns out the front.

I have looked for years trying to find a clone with the crossed lightening bolts, that shows it was proofed as a finished gun. I�m still looking. It would seem most were proofed, then finished. If outside companies produced the action and barrels, you would see that mark from time to time.

But, as a rule, you don�t.

Best,
Ted

i have an interest in brit/euro guns - particularly unusual (or distinct...) styles. unfortunately i don't have enough $$ to permit me more than lower level participation in this fascination. i have owned several french guns (have a robust & ideal presently), and would say that the french have explored more tangents in double gun design and construction than most. they also offer the "greatest" likelihood of happening upon an interesting gun from a seller who is largely ignorant of what they have. my ideal was bought through gunbroker, from a brick & mortar gunshop who had it listed as a verney-carron...shipped as such, and my ffl laughed and told me he was trapped as to showing it as a v-c on his books...

i truly appreciate the feedback here; the recurring discussions re: helice system guns, and speculations about the various barrel markings have much value in a little understood area. and, should another darne system gun float past me at a price i can manage, you fellows have much expanded my knowledge of things darne...

based on my limited knowledge, i would venture the opinion that the ellipse shaped markings are adverts. some contain no "genuine" information, but some, such as the two guns being discussed, have actual names (in this case "deschelle" and "couillard"). this fact seems to me to indicate a higher degree of expertise on the part of those mechanics and the possibility that those guns were of better quality than ones bearing only platitudes.

now, i would pose another question; having looked up the geographical locations of the makers....why would a maker in La Ferte-Mace send guns a much greater distance to be proofed in st. etienne, when paris is so close by?

best regards,
tom