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Joined: Aug 2007
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Joined: Aug 2007
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From Tyler's original post, it appears that he thought the question was off the topic. But it has grown into a monster such as asking which is better: SxS or O/U, double or single trigger, boxlock or sidelock. What a complex thread.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Last edited by ellenbr; 09/07/07 09:03 PM.
Joined: Nov 2002
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Sidelock
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Guys, I have a 15 year old pointer that was FF when he was a youngster, in his time he has pointed and retrieved hundreds of wild quail, usually making other dogs look pathetic, He has won field trials. I have news for you guys... It all depends on the dog... If he/she has it..then they have it.

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Tyler,

It might be useful to define a few terms; sometimes fings ain't what they used to be.

Force Fetch is training method (nothing more) that puts the dog under physical pressure; by performing a desired behaviour that pressure is removed by the dog. The pressure can be applied in a variety of ways, the e-collar is only one of them, ear pinch and toe hitch have been common in the past. There are a large number of training schemes available on DVD and in books that detail the process. As a result their is a good deal of commercial interest in moving FF onto the market.

E-collars have developed over the years to the point where the physical discomfort can be controlled and tailored to the individual dogs limits. If you place one on your arm it's very unpleasant but nothing like touching a cars HT lead. Once again commercial interest is a driver.

Field Trials in the US are tests of what might be called "extra-ordinary retrieving" where multiple marks at great distances over land and water are the norm. These retrieves have to be made by the dog running straight lines. It's very hard to see how the training could be achieved without the use of an e-collar; it's the only tool that works instantly over the distances. By their nature these trials do not test "game sense". Dogs bred from US Field Trial lines are obviously likely to excel at that discipline.

British Field trials do test game sense because they are conducted on as near a normal shooting day as possible; all game species may be encountered, fur and feather, runners, dead birds, marks and blinds. There is a concentration on manners also and in particular "vocalisation"; one yap and the dog is eliminated. Extraordinarily long retries are not the norm. Dogs bred from UK Field Trial lines are obviously likely to excel at that discipline. Clearly in the US there is a good deal of marketing and commercial pressure driving this message along.

There are some myths often accepted as fact. Amongst them are the following; I disagree with all of them for the reasons stated.

FF makes a more reliable retriever...No. Training (combined with a good breed line)makes a reliable retriever. I have never seen a properly bred UK Lab refuse a retrieve, never, and collars are not used.

The collar is cruel...No. Idiots misusing it can be cruel.

"Amish" (ie non collar, non FF)training is cruel because it relies on hitting the dog, using rat shot, marbles from catapults, and severe physical punishment. No. idiots doing those things are cruel. Modern training is highly effective and requires a very minimum of negative reinforcement.

To produce a first rate hunting dog neither FF or the collar are required or mandatory; just look at a British FTCh on a hunting day. To compete in US Field Trials they are vital. You pays your money and takes your choice, and there are a lot of folks only too willing to help with the former.

Non FF and e collar books I recommend are "Gundog Sense and sensibility" by Wilson Stephens, "Training Retrievers" by Nigel Mann, and probably most useful for you "British Training for American Retrievers" by Vic Barlow. For FF (non ecollar) check out the AHDC site for "Training the Sporting DOg". For FF (and collar) check the Green Book by the NAVHDA. Stuff by John and Amy Dahl, Mike Lardy, Evan Graham, Rex Carr are regarded as standard FF works.

Regards
Eug

Last edited by eugene molloy; 09/08/07 01:01 PM.

Thank you, very kind. Mine's a pint
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