doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com An $11K Reilly

Bushveld, I was a little snarky - and you know a hell of a lot more about English doubles than I do. Your posts on engraving are highly appreciated. I do own a 1902 William Evans 20 bore and understand how the trade works.

I will claim some expertise on Reilly, however, having researched the name for 4 years. A silly obsession. The conclusion I came to was that at least from the mid 1840's to 1880 when he suddenly jumped yearly SN'd gun production up by 400 guns, Reilly was a rare "vertical company" in London claiming to have made everything in-house and perhaps at the time the largest London gun maker outside of the Enfield factory itself. I am still working on definitive proof and have some more things to publish and to research.

And it could be that Webley made the action for this gun and it was finished by Reilly..- I believe it is a late gun, made while Reilly was in decline. To verify this though, we'd need to look at numbers and proof marks. This is why I asked the owner. Anyway, I wasn't sniping at you...I was responding to the usual interloper.

And Daryl, thanks. That Reilly-made Enfield rifle-musket is very interesting - I published it on the Reilly line on p.28. It was validation of method of dating Reilly's - it was given as a prize Christmas 1860 - my chart had it being numbered in early December 1860 - this from p.28 of the Reilly line:
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11716 - Validation of Chronology
This gun just appeared on Guns International. Reilly SN 11716 - .577 Enfield Rifle Presented as a prize Christmas 1860. The chronology date chart would have had it numbered in November-December 1860 - believe this is another "validation of method" marker.

This from p.22:
1860: 11341 - 11770. - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 430
11419 - Reilly, (Address not clear) Oxford; .577 cal Rifle; Enfield, 2 band, hammer gun, muzzle loader,
11645 - Reilly, 502 New Oxford Street, London. 100 bore; Rifle. Prince patent, single barrel, breech loader,
11651 - E.M. Reilly & Co., Oxford St., London. .577 cal; Enfield type, hammer gun, muzzle loader converted to Snider breech loader.
11xxx - E.M. Reilly & Co., 502 New Oxford Street London (Reilly on case); 11mm. 4 smooth barrel, hammer gun, muzzle loader
11716 - E.M. Reilly & Co., New Oxford Street, London; .577 Enfield rifle. Muzzle loader, volunteer rifles. Presented as a prize Christmas 1860

Heard back from the seller. He reports that the serial number is 33922 with 30" barrels. (Nothing about the name/address on the rib, patent numbers, etc. I date it to mid-1896:

1896: 33801 - 34200. - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 400
33832 - E.M. Reilly & Co., (address not mentioned)(sleeved). 12ga Shotgun SxS. Top lever, BLE.
33858 - E.M. Reilly & Co., (full address not mentioned). 12ga. Shotgun SxS. Top lever, Side lock Steel Barrels.
33889 - E.M. Reilly & Co., (address not mentioned). 12 ga. Shotgun SxS. Top lever, side lock, E, Steel brls. #1 of pair
33890 - E.M. Reilly & Co., (address not mentioned). 12 ga. Shotgun SxS. Top lever, side lock, E, Steel brls. #2 of pair
33922 - E.M. Reilly & Co., (address not mentioned). 12ga. Shotgun SxS.
33950 - E.M. Reilly & Co., 16, New Oxford St., London. 12ga. Shotgun SxS. Sidelock ejector. (Obendorf�s gun)
34164 - E.M. Reilly & Co., 16, New Oxford St., London, 12 ga, SxS shotgun.

Turns out I already had that gun from a few years ago....a British site: Here are my notes in the database (Note - no mention of Cyril Adams in the original ad; note the price it sold for in 2012. Cyril could have bought it of course from Gavin in 2012 one supposes - I don't have his date of death unfortunately):

=============================================================
33922

http://www.gardiner.com/bidcat/detail.asp?SaleRef=0015&LotRef=180

On Gavin Gardiner�s�April 18th�2012 Spring Fine Modern and Vintage Sporting Guns, I�ve saved the best for last. This E.M Reilly may just be the sleeper of the sale.

12 gauge E.M. Reilly double barrel shotgun at Gavin Gardiner�s

Lot 180: E. M. Reilly & Co. 12-bore sidelock ejector, No. 33922
30-inch damascus barrels with 2 1/2-inch chambers, about improved cylinder and full choke boring, doll�s head extension, the frame, back action bar lock and top lever with bouquet and scroll engraving and retaining much original hardening colour, 14 3/4-inch well figured stock, 6lb. 9oz., nitro proof. Bores/walls: Rt: 734/26 & Lt: 736/26. Estimate: �1,800-2,400
Pros: Looks like it could be very original. Good bores, good walls, damascus bbls, excellent maker, nice weight.
Cons: Not sure of the quality of the gun � would have to see more pics. Wood & bbls could be refinished, same with toplever & triggerguard. Again, would have to see more pics.
This is the kind of double that makes me drool. It�s probably from around 1890 -1895 and it has that great vintage look. It looks like it has escape the British refinish mill, too. Sold for��2600


Original picture in the Gavin Garner April 2012 catalog: No blue screws that I can see.

A conundrum: Why did Reilly decline and apparently exit when London gunmakers were seeing the growth to the greatest period of their businesses the shooting world has ever seen?

I've speculated about Reilly's decline. Something happened to cause him to close 2 rue Scribe in July-Aug 1885; it had been open for 17 years. Then there seemed to be a gradual but very steady decline in advertising after 1886.

E.M. died in July 1890. He was a marketing genius who kept all the balls in the air - exhibiting at international exhibitions, trying to grab military contracts, hobnobbing and social networking, etc. I don't know who ran the firm for the next 10 years between his death and 1900. Reilly had 3 sons. Charles (born 1873) who was 17 and still in school when he died; Bert (b. 1877) age 13 when he died. And Edward Montague, born 1870 out of wedlock but acknowledged, who would have been 20. Edward was associated with the firm in some way but died in 1895 at the age of 25. His wife Mary was still in her 40's but it doesn't look like she took an interest in gunmaking.

So it could have been a management problem. It doesn't look like E.M. prepared anyone to succeed him and he may have been a micro-manager. Also, as discussed on the Reilly line, Reilly always had multiple streams of revenue coming into the company. For instance, I think he made guns for other makers to put their name on them. I speculate that when he decided to sell off the rack in 1881, he may have cut back on this revenue stream and at the same time his cost of supporting an large inventory went way up.

His "military" revenue stream dried up in the early 1870's - he held the patent on Reilly Comblains and manufacturing rights on Green Bros Breech loader. In the 1860's-early 1870's he made thousands of these someplace. By the time the Martini Henry was formally adopted though, sales of these breech loaders declined. He made a lot of Martini's but the manufacturing was controlled by Enflied.

His guns still got a lot of play in the press and from international hunters using them but after E.M.'s death the publicity just sort of dropped out of sight. Bert didn't start running the company apparently until about 1900 when he was 23. By that time times had changed..

And he had targeted a very specific market segment in gun making...make a quality product for a cheap price and deliver it rapidly. I'm wondering if he started to get competition from factory made steel barrels and production in th e1890's rivaling his price structure and his ability to respond to orders.

A mystery for sure....maybe I'll turn up something in Library of Congress...where I've found some very interesting bits to add to the story. Sally, who posted on the Reilly line, is a descendant of JC and EM and has some additional information on his personal life.

I would guess death of E.M.R. was a factor
See Gene's latest article here:
https://www.vintageguns.co.uk/magazine/the-life-of-reilly

Congratulations by the way, Argo!

I hope yer link gives the Reilly brain wOrms a rest in the Alabama skally'wags brain.