doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com OT Force breaking a dog

Quote:
I have seen too many FF'd dogs in competition who were so controlled by their professional handlers that they were incapable of independent hunting judgment.

A dog in a hunt test or a field trail that comes to the line or hunting blind and is told to sit while it watches a triple mark presented to it,, had better be independent in its thinking, because the handler will have to let the dog "MARK" and retrieve the birds on its own merrit! No HANDLEING allowed! A dog that requires handeling on marks will not be successful!

Well, I haven't seen it all, nor do I know it all. But having judged AKC hunt tests, AWS Nationals and at the U.S. Open Pheasant Championship, I have seen a lot of FF'd dogs with pro handlers. They have ranged from some really outstanding performances to pathetic robodogs that couldn't find squat without handling.

FF is a useful gundog training tool, but not always necessary, not always the best. Done well, it can be very effective for certain things, especially competition, But IMHO, too often FF is used as a cookie-cutter shortcut by control freaks.

But if FF is what lights your fire, go fot it.

Exactly.



You might re-read my original statement - your response seems to indicate you read more into it than was presented, IMO.

Quote:

Today's field trials can't be considered anything close to a typical day's hunt. They have evolved into a booby-trapped endurance course in order to sort out entry lists of 100 or so dogs.


Field trails have little to do with hunting! They are a competition between other dogs,--a GAME!! they represent the best of the best. They showcase the capability the dog has and COMPETE agaist others that think they are better.

Hunt Tests on the other hand are definatly designed around true hunting situations. The HUNTING RETRIEVER CLUBS motto is "Concieved BY Hunters FOR hunters!
Tests are set up using true hunting situations and yardages.
they are one of the few that uses real guns at the line,the dog is required to swing with the gun to mark! These tests are as close to true hunting conditions as you can get, complete with marks that drift in river current, and cripples that crawl up the bank and bury themdelves in the grass. ANNNND on those "MARKS" the owner/handler had better not have to handle the dog. The dog is required to mark and use its nose too!.

There is soo much misunderstnding and prue non-sense spewed out about the Hunt testing and Field trial programs.
Some here should go and actually WATCH a test and ask questions before reviewing what a truly trained animal is capable of!!

We all have our standards. If you are satisfied with a dog that has to be taken to where the bird fell and told to hunt it up,, well great for you!. If your dog comes out of the water and spits the crippled duck out on the shore whilst it shakes, and you happy with that,, again thats YOUR standars! If its 20 degress out and a thin flim of ice on the pond your huntin, and the dog gives you a no go because it doesnt feel like it. Well,, go head and wade out and get it your ownself!!

Some of us however enjoy watching GOOD dog work, even more than the actual hunting. In my case its the only reason I go!

Jack,, with all do respect!
Being a AKC judge, you didnt pass many dogs that had to be handled on marks,, otherwise you wasnt followin the standard or rules of AKC!! Talking Master level RETRIEVER dogs here!

wow. As our friend Tyler (who has probably rolled his eyes and told himslef he will never again ask about this or any other subject here)has probably figured out, FF is a topic that always elicits "passionate" responses on both sides of the fence, and there is always a lot of what I consider baloney thrown about "natural" retrievers, etc...and the reccomendation to throw the dog away and get one who will retrieve is so much crap--the news flash to these folks is that not everyone views their dog as a tool, and by now it's too late for that and therefore unhelpful advice.
I've noticed that no one seems to throw a conniption when someone asks about whoa-breaking a pointing dog (who has a "natural" point), and that seems the best analogy to me--the FF simply takes the natural instinct and allows it to be a command that can be controlled or enforced if desired and is the foundation for much other training. Is it required? Not for some people. Is it useful? Maybe more to some than others, but it has benefits that go way beyond retrieving. There is also a way to do it without making your dog into a nervous wreck or interfering with their own desire to hunt, and various iterations of it can be done with as much or as little "force" as necessary or as the trainer desires--for instance you can teach a dog to "hold" with no force at all, and that fixes many retrieving problems.
I'm sure there are plenty of dogs who are nervous, skittish or whatever as a result of both whoa and fetch breaking but that's a trainer problem, not a problem with whoa or FF in general. Blame the trainer, not the concept of FF.

My rec is to find a pro trainer and talk to them about getting some 1 on 1 help teaching you how to work with your own dog--you'll quickly figure out if their training philosophy fits with yours, and when you find one who does will probably learn a lot about training FF and other things that you can't read in any book or (especially) online.

Never said I did. But I've seen FF'd dogs on blind retrieves that could be sent like an arrow to the area of the fall, but couldn't hunt that area without a lot of direction from the boss. And I've seen FF'd dogs that couldn't hunt objectives or use the wind without help. Not that they didn't have the instinct - they had just become handler-dependent.

IMHO, over-handling is the bane of the gun dog world; a good dog should have the confidence to use its own hunting skills without constant whistling and hacking - and the handler should be confident enough to let the dog hunt.

Jack your quote!:

But I have also seen FF'd dogs in competition, trained and handled by pros, that couldn't find a hen in a chicken coop without handling, and dogs afraid to take a step without checking with their handler.

If they were MARKS in AKC retriever hunt tests, Master level,, then as the AKC judge you say you are,, I dont see how you would have passed them. Marking is of PRIMARY importance in these HT's standards. The dog must mark and find the bird on its own!

Your example prolly has nothin to do with a good FF program, Prolly more to do with a Handler that didnt have a clue as to the FF proceedure, and how to teach it correctly.

Jacks Quote:

Never said I did. But I've seen FF'd dogs on blind retrieves that could be sent like an arrow to the area of the fall, but couldn't hunt that area without a lot of direction from the boss.

WOW!!! First off on a blind retrieve there is no "area of Fall"
The dead bird has been planted, and the dog sees no "fall from the sky". The dog has no idea where the bird is, and only goes by direction from the handler. The judges dont want to see the dog drop its nose and hunt,, they want to see deliberat obediant controll. Surprised that you as a AKC Retriever Hunt test Judge dindt know this!!

If the handler puts the dog on the bird as you described,, I would have to be there to see a dog of MASTER level that is sitting at the bird,, and cant come up with it!! Many times handlers will handle to dog to the upwind side of the bird, and have the dog struggle,, but who's fault tis that?? HUUUUM????

And I've seen FF'd dogs that couldn't hunt objectives or use the wind without help. Not that they didn't have the instinct - they had just become handler-dependent.

And from what the AKC will want to see from their HT standard, when you run a TRUE BLIND retrieve, the Judges are looking for obediant control of the dog, and a speedy and direct course to the bird, without destroying the hunting day afield, or cover. It is REQUIRED that the dog be Handler dependant on a BLIND retrieve!!

FF is much like religion or politics. Everyone has their own views. I just get my hair up when Generalizatons are spewed like has been here, about gettin rid of the dog, its a robo dog!,, ect!! Just pure uneducated bull!!!

I have had and trained both FF'd and non FF'd dogs of my own!
I speak from experiance that if done properly a FF'd dog advances through training quicker, and with more confidence than one that is not!
They also are a more DEPENDABLE and RELIABLE animal when it comes to YOUR standards!!

HomeLess, Are you the agent for that self-retrieving gun? I'd like to get one so's I can take my Jack Russell hunting and come home with something. Not that he dosen't like to hunt but if he gets to the bird first the last thing he'll do is bring it to me. Foxholes is what he really likes but I'd better have a shovel in case. "Go to ground" just ain't a waterfowl command. David

Gooser - retriever tests aren't the only game in the world. In the AKC Spaniel hunt test standard, a Master "must also 'hunt dead' on a land blind...' And on a blind retrieve, "area of fall" isn't a literal falling bird, but the general location of a planted bird that simulates an unmarked fallen bird. The handler is not given the precise location of the bird, only that area of fall to which he lines the dog. Once in the area, the dog is expected to use its own hunting skills to supplement the handler's commands.

You are right that "if done properly" FF dogs can advance quicker. In fact, that's why most pro retriever trainers use FF - it's a one-size-fits-all, cookie-cutter method that produces fast results for clients who don't want to spend a lot of time and trainer fees. But in dog training as in food, 'fast' doesn't necessarily mean 'best.'

FF is a lot like training with a hot collar. Done well, by someone who really knows his stuff, on a dog that needs it, it can produce impressive results. Done poorly by hasty and untrained amateurs, it can mess up a gun dog.

Too many hunters try to use FF or hot collars as a short-cut or substitute for time working with their dogs. How many times have you run into these poor saps afield, yelling and whistling and smoking their supposedly "force fetched" dogs with a hot button? I've seen too many, which is why I advise caution whenever a new gun dog owner starts talking about FF or hot collars - especially in threads like this, which began with a question about "force breaking."

I'm not against FF - it is a useful and effective dog training tool. But it isn't the right one for every dog, or every handler. Yet too often amateur trainers go straight to FF or the hot collar because "the pros all use it," without understanding that the pros don't have the time we have to spend developing the personal bond that pays off with a strong and willing partnership between man and dog.