doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Rethinking Guild Guns....

There may be some specific "dictionary" meaning to the term "guild gun", but I think it would likely vary somewhat from country to country--although virtually every country in Europe, at least prior to WWII (and even more so prior to WWI) produced what we tend to classify as "guild guns". What we seem to mean by that term is a gun with either no name, or perhaps the name of a gun dealer who was not a gunmaker. (The latter situation often arises on "French" guns, or rather guns with a French--usually Paris, but not always--address, but which reveal upon inspection of proofmarks to be Belgian.)

But if we broaden the "guild gun" category to include all guns which were made by individual "outworkers"--producing barrels, actions, stocks, etc, each in his own workshop--then we see that the Birmingham trade isn't really any different from what existed on the Continent. With the exception of the fact that a Brummie "guild gun" almost always ended up with some "gunmaker's" name on the barrels. Such a gun would be in contrast to one made in its entirety in a single factory--as were, for example, our American doubles.

The "apprentice" thing might have some truth, but rather than one apprentice, it would probably be several--each working within his own specialty. It would be rare to find a complete gun made by one individual, whether he be master craftsman, journeyman, or apprentice. Simply a question of it taking too long to learn each separate skill within the trade.

Many American collectors have already "broadened" the term guild to mean something they didn't understand. Now that the makers touchmarks have been mostly identified, it's time to retire this term based in ignorance...not broaden it further

It's just like those self appointed Baker/Lefever authorities who call every model variation they've not encountered before as "factory prototypes" or "lunchbox specials" or "executive" guns...when 10 or more of these variations show up how long do we keep this "prototype' label alive?

I had one of the regular contributors (here at this bbs) show me a L C Smith drilling years ago and tell me that it was a never seen before factory prototype....just because he had never seen one before...

Let it go...a prototype is a prototype, and a guild gun is a guild gun. Just as a masterpiece is a masterpiece, these terms are not for some seller/dreamer to twist as he sees fit.
These terms are not mine to broaden or twist either.

And in 4-6 weeks we might be a bit smarter. Pete M found a copy of Firearms in Belgium: Trade and Hallmarks by Bruno de ter Beerst in London.

Bruno's book offers little....or...maybe I just had my expectations set too high..

For the most part, I don't think there's much American interest in collecting guild guns, as they're thought of as shooters.
Judged with gun in hand, and hunted the same way.
Not very exciting to the American collector who wants maker history(not folklore) and track record to back-up his investment.
Indents seem a bit lacking.

Makers' marks will certainly help some, but you will often find a gun with a maker's mark on the barrels, nothing but standard proofmarks on the flats and water table. That will tell you who made the barrels (if you can decypher the mark), but you can't assume that the barrelmaker made everything else. In fact, chances are excellent that he didn't.

Since all the European countries had a gunmakers' guild, and since "guild" guns seem to be defined as guns that were not made "in house" in a factory--and either bear no name or only the name of a gun shop or dealer, not a gunmaker--then "guild" seems to be about as accurate a description as could be conveyed concisely.

The short answer is despite all the fond romantic regard for apprentice tasks (filing the perfect cube, "trying" surface plates, straitedges etc.)and the apprentice "piece" as evidence of worthiness for jouneyman status, there wouldn't be enuf apprentices (particularly of the sort who might peculiarly master all the requisite trades and skills top to bottom)to make all the anonymous "jobber" guns for the trade. As for the Brits, if the Brum gunmakers were a "guild" and the trade association suggested in Worshipful Company certainly indicates they were, half the London guns with respected maker names upon them are probably also guild-made guns to a greater or lesser degree.

jack

Parts is parts old Rabbit, depends on who and how they'd be put together. I'm sure the London trade drew upon the Brummiehams, but I'll tell you, the chaps that could and did knew what they wanted and could pay dearly for it.
Rich old blood has always had good taste.

Um yas, ol chappy, Ossa must be piled upon Pelion. Now you could forge an axehead from ore and shave a handle from a tree but you'd need a Chevrolet to get from bog to forest. What dey usta call vertical integration is always a problem.

jack

A Chevy is good enuff for all, but a few.
Life is different in the halls of the mannor, they have oils of their kinfolk on the walls of the staircases - we have faded photos in a shoebox in the closet.