doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com H. Bursmuller German Drilling info needed please

PHOTO LINK 1 (32 PICS): https://imgur.com/a/FOzaJWp
PHOTO LINK 1 (39 PICS): https://imgur.com/a/ROkYgIv
I have an H. Burgsmuller Kreinsen German drilling. The photo links are above. It is very ornately engraved. I believe it is pre-1905 due to the & Sohne not being added? It is in caliber 7.8mm x 58 1/2 mm, which is 8x58R (same as the Danish Krag? but maybe a smaller diameter bullet?), over 12 gauge (circled 12 means 2 3/4" shells?). All barrels are in very good condition. The scope and mounts are original to the gun. The claw mounts fit absolutely perfect. They go on and off nicely. The scope is a Wetzlar 5x. The original lens caps are perfect. the optics are clear and bright (I had a hard time photographing it). The reticle is a post. The original leather scope case is included as is a leather pair of scope covers. The serial number (as far as I know) is 206. There are the numbers 161 7 on the rear of the stock. The pictures show every detail. I would very much appreciate and info on caliber, when it was manufactured and the value.
Thank You,
Shawn Hoague

It passed thru the Suhl proof facility post 1912 & pre-1923. 8X58 1/2R Sauer & Sohn and 12X65mm. Lovely scope & case.
H. Burgsm�ller was a firearms merchant.


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

>>Burgsm�ller, trademark "Burgo", not only made guns to their own patented designs, but also had guns made for them by the Suhl and Zella-Mehlis guntrade. For a start, here is something I wrote some time ago when questioned about the Kreiensen gunmakers:
The village or small town of Kreiensen am Harz = at the foot of the Hercynian mountains , halfway between Hanover and Kassel, was a fine place for any shops in times when anyone travelled by railway: Kreiensen is the junction from the former east-west Brunswick state railway to the north-south Hannoverian/Prussian state railway, so there are two outsized 19th century stations built side by side. Two Brunswick farmers: "Heard your youngest son is going to America? That' a long way to go!" "Yes, I guess he has to change trains at Kreiensen." I myself changed there often enough in the 1960s. Often you had some waiting there, so there was ample time for passengers to do some shopping
The Kreiensen is best known in guncrank circles as the home of the Burgsmueller gun factory and mail order house. The Burgsmueller company since 1876 was a very inventive company with many patents not only on guns, but also on gunmaking-related machinery like deep hole drilling and rifling. Together with their competitor Stukenbrok in nearby Einbeck they pioneered the world wide mail order business on guns and other sporting equipment about 1900. Burgsmueller's 1930 catalog is available as a reprint from the GGCA's bookstore,see www.germanguns.com . The company still exists in it's original location, but out of the control of the family, as a precision machine producer. The remains of a gun department were closed down about 1990, and due to political correctness their home page does not even mention the fact that they ever had anything to do with guns, see the English version of their home page: www.burgsmueller.de
During the first World War Burgsmueller was a major producer of armament for the German army. They even held a patent for a trench mortar. After the end of WWI in 1918 all major German arms factories had to lay off most of their workers. Under fhe provisions of the Versailles "peace" treaty only one wespons factory, Simson, was allowed to produce arms. All other "name" factories until the mid-1920s existed under close supervision of allied disarmament comissions and the fear of being expropriated by them. Small, pure sporting no-name gunmakers did not suffer such stringent controls.
Here we come to W. Voss and Haselhorst & Co.
Wilhelm Voss opened shop in 1919. He even published a catalog appearing like an abbreviated carbon copy of a pre-war Burgsmueller catalog. He is last mentioned in 1940. Perhaps he was one of those Burgsmueller workers forced to live on their own after 1918; or perhaps "W. Voss" was only a brand name used by Burgsmueller, like Glenfield by Marlin?
The story of "Haselhorst & Co., Harzer Waffenindustrie = Hercynian Arms Industry" is more clear by now: Mr. Haselhorst was the father-in-law of one of the Burgsmuellers, and the "Co." was the Burgsmueller family! So it was nothing else then a brand name or mock company, created to disguise the fact of Burgsmueller producing and exporting sporting guns again. Haselhorst & Co. is documented for 1922 and 1924, according to family tale after only about 5 years there was no reason anymore for it's existence and it was liquidated.<<

http://doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=274106

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=304575&page=1

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

I have been experimenting with this & a similar load and know it well. Ford supplied the following from the 1940 Shooter's Bible:

>>For 8x58R, they show 2 grams of R.5 with the 12.7gram bullet also for 530 m/s at 25 meters (1600 kg./cm2). It shows 2.1 grams W1920 powder with 10 gram bullet for 624 m/s at 25meters( 2000 kg./cm2).<<

And I can tell you empirically that VV N140 closely mimics R.5(Rottweil). I don't know if one can assume the >>13<< grams(200 grain) metal jacket bullet is an abbreviated 12.7 grammes?


There's much more of course.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Looks like you have a mix of 32 Win Special(?) and 30-30 cases w/ parent headstamps in the cartridge trap. Can you pleasure us w/ an image of the cartridges?


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Thank You for the info so far. The ammo was made many years ago by a local old time reloader/ manufacturer. He just used those cases. I can get a pic of the bullet if you need. So this is POST 1905? Any ideas on value would be a huge help also.
Thank You,
Shawn

Yes, post 1912 & pre-1923. Burgsm�ller was say like Sears. I'd hazard a guess $1500 - $1800. Now it is in good shape & wears the glass which may add to the lot?

Nah, I was more interested in the case length & configuration.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Shawn,
As Raimey stated your drilling is chambered for 12 ga 2 5/8"( not 2 3/4") and 8x58R S&S( aka 8x58 1/2R S&S). This cartridge is drastically different than the Danish Krag. It is one of the more popular of the Sauer and Sohn series of cartridges and is in the 30-30/32 Win. Spec. class of cartridges. It is a rimmed, tapered cartridge with a base diameter of about .433" and case length of a little more than 2 1/4". The current "school solution" for making cases is to shorten 9.3x72R cases, form in 8x58R sizing die, fireform, then final trim to length. Bullets are normally shown as .318" if jacketed, and a couple thousandths over this if cast. Early after the war, when metric cases were difficult to find, cases were often made from original length 38-55( 2.125-130") cases with the bullets seated "out". If I had the drilling, I would still use the long 38-55 cases( currently, 38-55 ammo is loaded in 30-30 length[2.080"] cases). Starline has the longer cases at a good price. The ammo you have is in a case a little over a quarter inch short, but seems to work. I would account for the reduced capacity with reduced loads, however. Buffalo Arms, and others, has .318" jacketed bullets in a couple different weights. Good luck and enjoy.
Mike

I have an 8x58�R Sauer & Sohn chambering in unmarked drilling from 1907. It has normal 65mm 16gauge shot barrels All three barrels were Nitro Proofed, however, that didn't help the shot barrel which was presumably fired with snow in the barrel. I acquired it in this condition so can't state positively The rifle barrel is proofed for Stl mantle 12.8-gram (197� grain) bullet. Rifle bore slugged at .321" so I presume it was intended for the .318" bullets. Bullets made expressly for the .32-40 Ballard or .32 WS should work well as they are about .321" as opposed to the .323" 8mm S bullet.
Miller/TN