doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Manufrance Ideal Information

Hi I am new to manufrance ideal shotguns when I get interested in something I try to learn as much about it as possible. My father has a 302 with 1 wreath stamp that I would like to take out and use but I would like to gather some information before doing that I found some information about it but there�s not too much out there so I was hoping someone here could help with some of the many questions I have.
What is meant by 1100 kilos?
What do the 2 arrows mean?
https://www.amazon.com/photos/shared/PEwm_bAaSOqgiasu4TgkuA.pV7rF3bAFTy6qj5ZemyBdg
What does the normal stamp after cal 16 mean?
https://www.amazon.com/photos/shared/KF9xqBu7S1ycbgZTGtTy5w.f8melpNFmqnlUcEaWmEk_7
Does choke mean full choke?
I know Demi in French means half is that equivalent to improved cylinder or
modified choke?
What kind of shells do you recommend can I get modern ammunition or something
Specific for Damascus barrels? These don�t look like Damascus barrels.
https://www.amazon.com/photos/shared/C5c_1vRQRZ6W2jSisew8yQ.axgm78KEiwdKPIFOFZx_k7
What does the D inside the circle mean?
https://www.amazon.com/photos/shared/SsH_0TI1Rmuh3pncCglsHQ.cHga8OKdX9itZF7Sm14NkB
Would anyone be able to tell me what year this was made?
I am also missing the end of the sling that hooks to the barrels if someone could let me know where I might be able to find one
Thank you for all the help

Welcome Vassili on your first post here. Lots of MF-Ideal enthusiasts here. While awaiting answers to the questions you posed, you might want to utilise the search feature here and read numerous prior Ideal threads...Geo

Post some pictures of more of the gun besides close up of some of the proof marks.

Production date can be inferred by a few things, including, importantly but not definitively, by the serial number. Model 302 was made between 1931 and 1939. Almost impossible that it was produced with Damascus barrels.

The metal end of the sling is often referred to a "Napolean's Hat". Very hard to come by. Best to search Naturabuy online auction located in France. (Similar to Gunbroker) Google Chrome or fluency in french is recommended.

What do you mean by modern ammunition? Hot 1700 fps steel loads? In which case, no.

Sensible lead or lead equivalent around 1200 fps, shoot away. Just have the barrels examined first by a competent SxS smith who can check for dangerous pitting and safe barrel wall dimensions.

In the period in which this gun was produced, it was the base model, if it is a 302. Extractors and the basic quality barrels. Very limited, if any, engraving and plain but good wood.

As that gun is at least 80 years old, I would not take the choke markings (or the bore dimensions) for granted. Unless you are sure of 85 years of provenance, there is no telling what has happened to those barrels during that time. Rather that assume the chokes are as original and marked, and the bores have not been honed out, you should have the gun properly examined by someone who knows what they are doing. Not your local smith who used to working on tactical shotgun.....a SxS specialist.

And don't let ANYONE take the stock off unless they already know how to remove an Ideal stock. Many, many Ideals in NA have had the stock irreparably damaged because the smith did not know how to remove the stock. It's almost rare to find one that isn't damaged.

Due to the leather rotting because they are rolled up wet, most of the sling ends (which as canvasback said are referred to as Napoleon's hat) have been lost. Seems like some machinist here would make up a batch of them and earn a little money...Geo

If someone does, put me on the customer list!

I have brought in from France the Napoleon hat , strap, safety, two 16ga Ideals, and assisted others with the acquisition of a few more. Parts for Ideals are readily available on NaturaBuy, though France apparently changed their gun laws last August and the guns themselves and barrels (I have brought in two sets of barrels in the white) are more difficult to get now. There should be (but rarely, absent) markings in mm just before the barrel flats. For a 16ga, the number is anywhere from 16.9 through 17.2. Manufrance typically slightly overbored their tubes, and had very tight chokes. Right would average around .028, and the left in the mid to high 40's. That would be what was indicated by choke and demi choke. Normal means standard chamber length, 65mm. That wreath of laurel leaves is the quality of the barrels/steel, and the best ones (I have only seen up to five laurel wreaths) are proofed to higher pressures. As Geo said, look at old threads for a wealth of information, and there are posts of French proof marks. I have four sets of 16ga barrels, and they run about .669 with a new BWT of .038 9" in. The finished bore diameter is very helpful to determine if the bores have been honed.

Above all, welcome to the Club Fusil Francophile. They are great guns.

Mike

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Retractable-rolling-sling-Darne-Robust-Ideal-Manufrance-buckle/183741033660?hash=item2ac7d1acbc:g:pawAAOSwE-5bzP7g

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Spring-Coil-Retractable-rolling-sling-Darne-Ideal-Robust-Manufrance/183682809917?hash=item2ac459403d:g:J3wAAOSwVtZaJvLR

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Retractable-rolling-sling-Darne-Robust-Ideal-Manufrance-buckle/183741034682?hash=item2ac7d1b0ba:g:tRcAAOSwUVhbzQE~

Little pricey, naturabuy will likely yield a better price

Thanks for all the information you all have shared. I have been going through a lot of the old posts and have come across some good information. I went to the naturabuy a lot of good items there but I contacted one of the guys selling items and he said he can not ship to the states. Here are a few more pictures of the gun thanks again for all the information please keep it coming.

https://www.amazon.com/photos/shared/OMPwKjk9SVqlp-snmDuMvQ.t2kHskSkfNDVBPI3naZUXE

https://www.amazon.com/photos/shared/AkqeytnmQ_KV5-Wg6TonxQ.r0a7VZEfJ3jAjP18qeGAXb

https://www.amazon.com/photos/shared/YmYox-hBQe68S5ohNNAcvQ.3ZLRSf8naCTp-nPejyr8ao

https://www.amazon.com/photos/shared/uvwwmKisQH6qM08MYYa7Cw.X8zYGTIwAap0DQ_D5BQP1y

https://www.amazon.com/photos/shared/aQkWBcSERZOSfmT4v2L0Zw.xynF0ZLKMS2V3qMiCt-tDT

https://www.amazon.com/photos/shared/LG0zUb2xSHiCT8aRrAxbPA.sdjHnjeavYzkVv7_WRmjET

https://www.amazon.com/photos/shared/T8Iqvf69Qu6oAyBNKty58Q.U1yKawtPlLDl8m0m-sbiAX

https://www.amazon.com/photos/shared/J8Y0LSQ8SUaaD3wAkxfXyA.YqnzZjHWBOJHtAFzxLlkRA

https://www.amazon.com/photos/shared/QzlLXBfmR8Ox9wXwXrJhxA.HZF0vXn8xI82rWzdJRq4ue

https://www.amazon.com/photos/shared/YNav920_TXWPl3bDgixecw.lWsx7q2U2hli0H5_gRH2vG

https://www.amazon.com/photos/shared/TNaGTkctSmej-dKcvFerJA.cvIbnPtk-NJbFlJjsWZQOg

Congratulations - it appears your gun has escaped the all too common damage to the top strap inletting through improper disassembly (this is seen as gaps in the wood to metal fit just before the screws/pins, where the strap starts to swell to its bulb shape. The screws look in decent shape, as does the wood to metal fit.

Did you find the bore diameter stamps? Do you have a bore gauge to check current diameter? With all the usual caveats of being unaltered, they are very stout guns.

Don't be put off by an initial refusal of a Frenchman to sell to you. Offering to pay a little extra for shipping has in the past changed the mind of a seller for me.

One other insight into these guns: there is a rising bite that engages the doll's head. If this rising bite is not perfectly flush with the doll's head, it will not be in battery and usually results in light primer strikes and a failure to fire. They are machined with very tight tolerances, and I have had a single flake/disc of unburnt powder on the action flats keep it from going into battery.

Good shooting,


Mike