doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Buying an upgrade.

Very nice gun Bob. That would be a pleasure to own and shoot. That up grade to me is a honest upgrade not anything done to deceive. It�s one of those guns that the owner decided to make it into what he wanted and did not spare the expense to do it right. Plus he made sure none after him could try to make it into something dishonest.

When buying m, I look at sellers on a sliding scale. 1 Strictly honest and well informed, 2 honest but not well informed, 3 pretend to not notice or know things but still overall honest, 4 notice but try to down play or hide things and then the lowest level, 5 those who know but lie and make every effort to deceive.

I don�t fool with 4�s and 5�s. Don�t reward bad behavior or you will just get more of it. A lot of people are 3�s. Basically honest sellers, who will miss things that the buyer finds. Like a tiny crack on a stock or a area of bluing that was touched up long ago. Some sellers are 2�s just because they have no real clue what they are selling. Perhaps the were given the gun years ago and never used it. Perhaps they looked it up on line and found wrong information about it. Those you can deal with and share information with so they learn what they have and it�s approximate value. And we all love dealing with the number 1. Honest, well informed sellers who let the gun speak for its self. They are rare inde d sometimes.

The gun that started this is being sold by a 3 I think. I�ve dealt with him before. To me it�s an upgrade, 99% certain. Done years ago, decades ago I�m betting. So not done to deceive by him or even the last owner. I�m not going to pay top dollar (8-10K) for it. I would pay a premium (4-6K) based on high refinished condition on a upgraded shooter. That�s all this gun can be in my mind. I doubt you could do the upgrade for less that low end of my buying price. Restock, engrave, refinish might even be more than the asking price. I�ve never known a person who paid for an upgrade to claim later he made money on the deal. Upgrades become a labor of love or a money pit.

Bob;
Glad to hear that. Thank you for answering. That "ENGR REPRODUCTION BY R RUNGE ILION NY 72" would let anyone know immediately it was not factory original.

Where the real rub comes in on an upgrade which is not easily recognizable is if one were looking at it to buy they just might need to make a somewhat hasty decision & not always have the time to check the factory records.

My question to you was based on this statement of yours
"Everything done as "Factory" with all correct markings."
But I would not call that entirely correct now as you placed additional markings on it to make it recognizable as an upgrade. In my opinion, this is something which should be done on all upgrades to make them recognizable without having to go back to factory records, which are not available on all makes of guns which may be upgraded, as they are on the Parkers.

I commend you for doing this.

Just curious, as I own an original 1939 Model 12 field grade - in 28 gauge. I acquired it from the son of the first owner, he even had the paperwork and bill of sale tucked into the canvas break-down case, plus the original hanging tag.

It is my understanding that WRA offered the 28 gauge in the M12's from about 1937 to 1955 (with appropriated production loss from 1941 to 1945, due to wartime)--

But I have heard of 'counterfeits" made on M12 20 gauge guns, re-barreled to the smaller bore. The only sure ways I know of to determine a "genuine" 28 gauge M12 from a "counterfeit" are: (1) check the sn. against the records for sns. from 1937 to 1955 (Ned Schwing pocket book is what I use) and (2) Remove the buttstock and check the rear of the receiver boss- the original gauge of the M12 when it left the factory will be stamped there--

But I am sure there are other "reliable ways" to verify an original from a counterfeit-- RWTF

Francis, that's a valuable gun you have. What's its condition? Gil

Pretty well used--the former owner used it for grouse, woodcock and quail-- thick cover hunting-- It is a field grade, 26" imp. cyl. with solid rib, field grade buttstock, older ringed forearm, black WRA buttplate-- From what I have read (Dave Riffle's book on the M12) the valuable ones are the pigeon grade skeet models- and a shotgun used for clays and NOT field hunting in thick cover usually tends to be in better condition, as to both metal and wood.

But when I obtained it some years ago, I tended to believe the M12 "collectors market" would hold up-- maybe yes, maybe no-- But our Cabela's ?Bass Pro Shop/ conglomerate is NOT buying M12's, M42's, Belgian Browning A-5's now-a-days-- guns that a few years ago, if they didn't have Cutts or Polly-Wanna-Cracker chokes installed, were good items to have- like pre-1964 Model 70's etc. Now--not so much.

I don't have a lot "into" this small gauge "Perfect Repeater", and as I love the original WRA M12's I plan to hang onto them, and leave them to my grandsons, as both my father and grandfather did for me. I can only hope that they will live in a time when hunting birds and waterfowl opportunities will still exist--nRWTF

Well, it is certainly rare and a nice possession. A buddy had a nice pigeon grade model with two matching barrel assemblies. Beautiful wood, but was a 12 ga. and you can guess its marketability (or lack thereof) when he tried to sell it. I hope your grandsons learn to love them as much as you do but not anytime soon. Gil

Thank you for the kind words-- One of several reasons I'm saving the 28 gauge field gun for my oldest of two grandsons (he's already being a good safe shot with .22's) is that he'll have a better chance on game birds (and clays) with the 28 ga. than a .410 (IMO)-- I started with a 20 gauge single shot when I was 11- then my Dad's M12 20 gauge when I was 12-- but one shell only, as with the Stevens. When I was 16, I could load it with 3 shells--

I'll start him with that same drill- Just hope he'll have some chances on game birds in years to come--hard to predict the future, but I'm a hoping!!

There used to be an old man that trolled around all the local gun shows in Tulsa with a 28 ga. Model 12. He had no intention of selling, he just wanted attention. He'd stand in front of your table with feigned interest in your wares just hoping that you'd say something about his gun. I've seen at least one faked 28.

No one should even consider buying a high condition gun, a gun with collector value, or a gun of a higher grade than standard grade, at a price that is anywhere near its supposed value, until the buyer has paid his dues in the gun collecting field. It is just as easy for an uninformed buyer to take a bath on a supposedly new condition 870 field gun that has been poorly refinished as it is for him to take a bath on an A Grade Parker.

A lot of places were making up the 28ga M12 conversions after Winchester sold the big lot of parts off in the 70's or 80's. That included the 28gs bbls, mag tubes,carriers, shell stop,ect.
Rumors were that one person had bought the whole lot,,other rumors were to the contrary. Rumors are great sources of information.

Simmons Gun Specialtys were doing the conversions for quite some time. So I quess they had bbls and parts. They still had all the set up to do the conversions as recently as maybe 15yrs ago or so but had run out of bbls.
Jimmy Clark the pistol 'smith used to do them.
(I guess bbls and parts were available from someone/somewhere)

As long as you had either a 20ga or 16ga M12 (same frame) you had what you needed to build on.
16's were most likely cheaper to buy to use as a starter.

I'd guess the surplussed orig Winchester bbl made at the factory and fitted to any old 16 or 20ga M12 would be a giveaway sometimes if the bbl address style on the 28ga bbl from that period didn't match the period of the ser# on the frame it was then fitted to.

Most of these conversions are tastfully reblued. The donor M12 usually a scab gun bought on then cheap. The 28ga Winchester bbl and tube NOS with a nice finish. So the frame & TG in the very least redone if not the whole thing.

...Probably get it with some orig Hang Tags, a Box and orig work order from the Custom Shop.