doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Buying an upgrade.

I don't know who did the conversion on my M12 28ga, but I do know a guy who used to do those conversions. He apparently did quite a few, so there were sources for parts. When he looked at my example, he just took a quick look inside the ejection port and instantly recognized that it was a conversion, no doubt about it. But I knew that when I bought it.

That makes sense-as the M12's in 16 and 20 gauge, aprox. after 1930-something, had 2 & 3/4" chambering- The M12 28 gauge had 2 & 7/8" chambering- the front of the ejection port would most likely
be "re-radiused" to allow a spent 2&7/8" length hull to clear--


Roger Rule's great book on the M70 is a "bible" of data and good detailed photos. Ditto for both the Madis and Riffle books on "The Perfect Repeater" regardless of gauge and configuration. RWTF

Words of wisdom-- "Experience is a great teacher, but the tuition costs can be rather high!" I was re-reading an older issue of SS magazine-noticed a Parker VHE upgraded to an A-1 Special, done by Turnbull--Noted that the ad did NOT claim it was an original A-1 20 gauge--

Here is an upgrade:

https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-f...un_id=101141636

So, what is it? What is it worth? How was it upgraded?

Here is another upgrade:

https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-f...un_id=101183430

How was it upgraded? Is it what it claims to be? Who built it?

Best,
Ted

My M12 28ga has a barrel stamped for 2-7/8" chamber, but I have not compared that port to my 2-1/2" 1912 20 ga. The 20ga short chamber gun has no trouble ejecting 2-3/4" hulls.

"...Probably get it with some orig Hang Tags, a Box and orig work order from the Custom Shop."

Like this one. He has several others.

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/799584316#carousel-modal-view-item



Box is in good shape from 1936. Tape even still fresh looking. If my great aunt looked that good, at the same age, she would be beating men off with a stick.

I love the letter another seller was trying to pawn off on another gun which had been printed on a ink jet printer. Letter was his "written proof" of his rare guns veracity. Asked the seller what kind typewriter it was written on? No clue he said. A 50 year old type written letter looks nothing at all like a modern letter. Different strikes, on different letters, give it a different feel. His response was they must have used a new ribbon. Then asked him why there was a zip code on the envelope instead of a Postal Zone. Postal Zones were used from 1943-1963. He had no idea what a postal zone was. I explained zip codes came out in 1963. His letter was dated 1958 and was "mailed" in 1958 but his envelope had a zip code on the return address. And back then most, but not all return addresses were written on the backside of the envelope. Told him his letter not only proved his gun was real but the writer of the letter was seeing into the future.

Ted is that a 2, 3 or 4 seller? Or semi clueless, clueless and painfully clueless?

If you want to look at "upgrades" take a look at Winchester 12's and 42's or 70's. When I was collecting Model 70's from the late 60's until about 1982 every year it seemed like the number of fakes increased until 60-70% of high grade or 90% of the rare examples were either upgraded, fakes or refinished trying to be sold for factory original.

A novice stood no chance of buying a decent gun other than by chance. I have deflated countless great buys by explaining why what they have is not what they thought they were buying. Tell a friend his 2-4K investment is not worth it or even a fraction of that amount.

As to rare they are some out there. I bought a very high condition Model 70 in 35 Remington which was the second or third rarest caliber they made. Sitting on a shelf in a gun shop in NJ. Low price on it because the dealer thought the .35 Remington was a dog of a caliber. It was. In the same month I bought a .300 Savage which was considered to be the rarest. That one did not come cheap at all. Later it was determined there were a few non catalog calibers even rarer. Best shooting Model 70 I ever had was a .300 H&H, one that gave me a life long flinch was a .458. I'd like to have the H&H back and wish I could get rid of the flinch forever. It comes back once and a while for a visit.

There are more pre'64 Model 70's now than there were in 1964. They just keep popping up. And don't even think about 42's. The demand creates the fakes or reason to make the fakes.

Jon,
Over the last 25 years or so, I have been the bearer of bad news to a bunch of guys who took a gun dealers word for it that a Darne, or, Darne clone was far higher grade than it actually turned out to be. Usually, there is no actual work on these �upgrades� just the dealer saying the gun is something it isn�t.
Gun number one is exhibit A. While he makes a half assed attempt with some weasel mouth claim about not knowing what the gun actually is, that didn�t stop him from listing it with the number 19, a high grade Darne in the scheme of things. But, it isn�t a V19, in fact, it isn�t a Darne. It is a Francisque Darne, built in the factory started by Regis Darnes Son using older Regis Darne patents, and the gun has been restocked in American walnut, with a pistol grip, a cheek piece, and a white line pad. It was a model known as the Classique, probably the highest grade of the lower grade F. Darne models.
I�d call the asking price, optimistic.

The second gun is listed as an R10. It is not. Again, it is not an actual Darne, and is not an R10. My humble opinion, worth every penny it cost, is that the clones take a hit, price wise, versus an actual Darne, often through no fault of their own. Quite often they are very good quality, but, the equivalent Actual Darne sells for a bit more. More than likely, the proofed action and barrels were sold to a gunmaker out the back door of the Darne factory, to be finished up and either given a name, or, more common, left anonymous.

I don�t believe it takes all that much home work to come up with what you are actually selling, but, that would likely bring the realization that either of these guns is an also ran, and should be priced accordingly.

Jon, the whole American Collectable gun thing is something I don�t completely grasp, and never got involved in. My model 1912 works OK, but, I think my Remington model 17 is a better gun. But, the pricing is always higher on the former.
No good reason that I can see for that.

Best,
Ted

Sacrilege Ted. The entire world knows the Model 12 is the perfect repeater. Sellers often pretend to not know what they have but whenever I offer them half the real value they all suddenly know not to sell. It�s trolling for suckers.

I do not pretend to know the Darne, Darne, Charlin guns well and have a complete lack of grade understanding. I know you that they are cousins and look like similar guns but not all created equal by any means. Years ago I almost bought a very pretty 24 gauge Darne in a fairly decent grade. That was until I looked at the ballistics of the 24 and decided both the 20 and 28 would do the same thing with a lot easier time finding ammo. I still wonder where that 24 is from time to time. Due to lack of use it was just like new and most likely still is.

I would happily buy an upgrade. I'd love to have one of these Fox upgrades the guys on here keep showing. The only problem I have with that is I'm unlikely to be able to pay what they probably have in them. I can admire them anyway...Geo