doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Buying an upgrade.

I just rejoined Photobucket so I will try it on this topic.
DelGrego and Runge Upgrade in 1972 from a VHE 20 to a A1S Skeet.
Everything done as "Factory" with all correct markings.
Bob Jurewicz

On a gun that factory records are available for, I say "Caveat Emptor". Anyone who will be potentially buying a vintage graded gun, that doesn't go to the expense, and take the time, to check the records, deserves what he gets. If I get so caught up in the moment that I buy a gun without vetting it, I deserve what I get.

That said, I would always do everything I could to let a potential buyer, even after I'm gone, know that the gun was not "per factory". I have always asked an engraver to leave some ID mark, that anyone would know if they examined it closely enough ............ initials, etc.

The notion that upgrading a gun is automatically an effort at deception, or counterfeiting, is alien to me. The vast majority of upgraded guns are made so for the owner's pleasure, not for financial gain, IMO.

SRH

Does that mean the Vulcan Steel marking has been obliterated & replaced by the marks for the A1 grade/
If so I personally would call that plain Deception, if not a criminal offense in the event it was sold as such.

Everyone should remember that a mistruth is not always a lie. A lie implies that there was intent to deceive. No intent to deceive may be as simple as being "misguided", or simply wrong.

SRH

Stan;
I fully agree which is why I asked for clarification on the markings. To me, IF the original VH markings were wiped out & new A1s marks stamped in, that amounts to a lie. As long as the original marks are not tampered with then anyone with a simple look can identify it as an upgrade & not an original.

Obviously, the person who did it or Had it done knows what it is. I can see no reason for changing the marking except for intent to deceive. Since they will be unable to deceive themselves then it must be to deceive others.

I purchased 2 Winchester model 21�s that had been upgraded and did not hesitate to purchase. The first started its life as a Field grade 20 gauge in 1941. Factory records indicated such. The gun had grade 6 style,engraving but since it did not letter as such, I paid less than what it was worth. Further research and speaking with Pauline Muerrle she was able to find the records where the gun went back to the factory in 1945 and was engraved by George Ulrich. And the restocked in 1957.
The other was a gun purchased by Marshall Fields and then custom engraved for the President of Marshall Field, Hughston McBain for his 25 th anniversary. The gun was engraved by Arnold Griebel it is believed and is a spectacular shotgun.
Both guns upgraded under different surcomstances but I believe value added in both these upgrades once the history was located.

If I add a set of NOS barrels to a gun, in addition to the original set, and have them stamped with the serial number of the action, am I positively making an effort to deceive someone in the future?

SRH

Interesting Stan. Was it logged into the Purdey shop for the second set, or was a fake patina applied to the NOS. Is the new serial number made to look like the same worker stamped it consecutively with the original, or is it just to ID the barrel.

Not necessarily Stan, but that is a bit different circumstance. I'll use Lefever here, for example, if those new old stock barrels were an H or G grade set of barrels & you had the barrels engraved to a higher grade pattern, then had them stamped Krupp or Whitworth, which only came standard on the higher grades, then YES I would say it was an attempt to deceive.

The same, in my opinion, would apply to a VH grade Parker "IF" it was restamped to an A1S grade.

Back around 1970, I had a set of barrels made by one of the Bernadellis (Not Vincenzo) in Italy for an FE grade Lefever. They stamped it with the guns SN & grade for which it was made. There is however no way it could be passed off as original as it is marked Boehler Steel & carries all the appropriate Italian proof marks. They did not stamp proof marks on the action, which would, of course, have been done had it been an original gun shipped to Italy & required a trip through the proof house to be legal to sell.

Most of us here are probably capable of telling when the intent to deceive is done, but many are not. I lost all respect for a dealer once when he tried to sell me a boxlock Holland Holland (No &) with Belgian proof marks. When I pointed out the discrepancies to him, he sorta made an attempt to play dumb. I realized though that he did not have a lot of customers interested in doubles & when I came into the store that night he saw "Sucker" in his eyes. Fortunately, I knew just a bit more than he thought I did.

There is no deception. The gun is an upgrade not a counterfeit. It retains its original serial number, which is recorded as a VHE, and is engraved "ENGR REPRODUCTION BY R RUNGE ILION NY 72".
Bob Jurewicz