|
S |
M |
T |
W |
T |
F |
S |
|
|
|
|
1
|
2
|
3
|
4
|
|
5
|
6
|
7
|
8
|
9
|
10
|
11
|
|
12
|
13
|
14
|
15
|
16
|
17
|
18
|
|
19
|
20
|
21
|
22
|
23
|
24
|
25
|
|
26
|
27
|
28
|
29
|
30
|
31
|
|
|
|
Forums10
Topics39,489
Posts561,992
Members14,584
| |
Most Online9,918
Jul 28th, 2025
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 36
Boxlock
|
OP
Boxlock
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 36 |
I read on another post named "damascus explained" on page 52 that Purdey made all it's own damascus barrels until about 1870 when the transition started to steel tubes. The previous post said this info came from Donald Dallas's book on Purdey history! A good description of the actual stamp is also provided. I recently purchased a thumbbreak Purdey with damascus barreles made in 1869. I've looked over the barrels carefully and cannot locate the stamp mark anywhere. Can anyone tell me where on the barrels this stamp mark would be located. Must be a secret place! Both barrels have the serial number on the bottom near the breech!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,758 Likes: 460
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,758 Likes: 460 |
We've learned a lot since that thread Kathy.
According to W.W. Greener, William Fullerd was the last to make barrels in London and supplied all the "best" makers of that era until 1844. Lancaster supplied Purdey (and others) in the early days before he became a gunmaker himself.
The first Purdey Pair Nos. 10614 & 10615 were delivered January 1, 1880 with the “New Whitworth Fluid Pressed Steel.” Lefever Arms Co. was the first U.S. maker to supply Whitworth steel for their Optimus in 1887.
c. 1890 James Purdey II wrote concerning steel barrels that he preferred damascus but acknowledged that "...weight for weight steel is stronger than iron and shoots harder, though not of so handsome an appearance as damascus barrels." He favored Belgian damascus because "...not that when thorough sound English damascus can be obtained they are not superior, but because Belgian workmen are more careful than English, and there is thus less risk of slag and rubbish getting into the welds."
W.W. Greener, "The Gun and Its Development", 1907
"The figured barrels used by London makers are now imported. In the Midlands the barrel welders are not so numerous as they were, the demand for twisted barrels not being so great as formerly. The very best barrel-makers who manufacture for the London, Berlin, and Vienna markets are to be found at Chaudfontaine or Nessonvaux, both places a few miles from Liege."
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 306 Likes: 13
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 306 Likes: 13 |
We've learned a lot since that thread Kathy.
According to W.W. Greener, William Fullerd was the last to make barrels in London and supplied all the "best" makers of that era until 1844. Lancaster supplied Purdey (and others) in the early days before he became a gunmaker himself.
The first Purdey Pair Nos. 10614 & 10615 were delivered January 1, 1880 with the “New Whitworth Fluid Pressed Steel.” Lefever Arms Co. was the first U.S. maker to supply Whitworth steel for their Optimus in 1887.
c. 1890 James Purdey II wrote concerning steel barrels that he preferred damascus but acknowledged that "...weight for weight steel is stronger than iron and shoots harder, though not of so handsome an appearance as damascus barrels." He favored Belgian damascus because "...not that when thorough sound English damascus can be obtained they are not superior, but because Belgian workmen are more careful than English, and there is thus less risk of slag and rubbish getting into the welds."
W.W. Greener, "The Gun and Its Development", 1907
"The figured barrels used by London makers are now imported. In the Midlands the barrel welders are not so numerous as they were, the demand for twisted barrels not being so great as formerly. The very best barrel-makers who manufacture for the London, Berlin, and Vienna markets are to be found at Chaudfontaine or Nessonvaux, both places a few miles from Liege." I have a Purdey 12 ga bar in wood hammer gun with Whitworth fluid pressed steel barrels serial #102xx. Bill
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 36
Boxlock
|
|
OP
Boxlock
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 36 |
Bill
If you look at the post named "damascus explained" on page 52 in the middle of the page Drew Hause has a section from page 27 of Dallas's book on Purdey which shows this symbol Purdey stamped on each barrel they made. It looks like a small "a" followed by a different looking capital "E". You"ll see what I mean on "damascus explained". Can you check your gun to see if this stamp marking is on each barrel? Must be on the underside somewhere. Let me know. Thanks
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,758 Likes: 460
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,758 Likes: 460 |
Bill: that information came from David Trevallion. Are you confident the barrels are original? 102XX would be about 1877. Sir Joseph Whitworth, Miscellaneous Papers on Mechanical Subjects: Guns and Steel, 1873https://archive.org/details/miscellaneouspa02whitgoog On p. 18 Whitworth states that the tensile strength of No. 1 Red Gun Barrel steel is 40 tons/89,600 psi, the same number claimed by Henry Bessemer. No mention is made of carbon content or composition. Daniel Kinnear Clark, The Mechanical Engineer's Pocket-book of Tables, Formulae, Rules and Data, 1893 reports 67,000 psi for Whitworth gun barrel steel. Sir Joseph's adaptation of Bessemer's principle of hydraulic pressure casting was patented in 1874. Wm. Powell & Son first used Whitworth steel for barrels in 1875 per Stephen Helsley. "Damascus Explained" thread is now 11 years old, and many of the images have been lost in the photobucket abyss and internet space  http://doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=74750&page=1 and Steve Culver has 'splaind it a lot better https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jQPuv4yOXpTppdXkAiyGj6LC5bXDAYBCR1DME9lB0JM/edit
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 306 Likes: 13
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 306 Likes: 13 |
Bill: that information came from David Trevallion. Are you confident the barrels are original? 102XX would be about 1877. Sir Joseph Whitworth, Miscellaneous Papers on Mechanical Subjects: Guns and Steel, 1873https://archive.org/details/miscellaneouspa02whitgoog On p. 18 Whitworth states that the tensile strength of No. 1 Red Gun Barrel steel is 40 tons/89,600 psi, the same number claimed by Henry Bessemer. No mention is made of carbon content or composition. Daniel Kinnear Clark, The Mechanical Engineer's Pocket-book of Tables, Formulae, Rules and Data, 1893 reports 67,000 psi for Whitworth gun barrel steel. Sir Joseph's adaptation of Bessemer's principle of hydraulic pressure casting was patented in 1874. Wm. Powell & Son first used Whitworth steel for barrels in 1875 per Stephen Helsley. "Damascus Explained" thread is now 11 years old, and many of the images have been lost in the photobucket abyss and internet space http://doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=74750&page=1 and Steve Culver has 'splaind it a lot better https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jQPuv4yOXpTppdXkAiyGj6LC5bXDAYBCR1DME9lB0JM/edit Hi Drew I have a letter from Purdey stating that it is no 1 of a pair built in 1880. The serial numbers are sometimes out of sequence for various reasons. Yes, I am confident that the barrels are original. They have black powder proof typical of that era. Also they were nitro proved, probably early 1900's. Bill
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 306 Likes: 13
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 306 Likes: 13 |
Bill
If you look at the post named "damascus explained" on page 52 in the middle of the page Drew Hause has a section from page 27 of Dallas's book on Purdey which shows this symbol Purdey stamped on each barrel they made. It looks like a small "a" followed by a different looking capital "E". You"ll see what I mean on "damascus explained". Can you check your gun to see if this stamp marking is on each barrel? Must be on the underside somewhere. Let me know. Thanks Yes I'll check in a day or two and report my findings. Bill
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 306 Likes: 13
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 306 Likes: 13 |
Bill
If you look at the post named "damascus explained" on page 52 in the middle of the page Drew Hause has a section from page 27 of Dallas's book on Purdey which shows this symbol Purdey stamped on each barrel they made. It looks like a small "a" followed by a different looking capital "E". You"ll see what I mean on "damascus explained". Can you check your gun to see if this stamp marking is on each barrel? Must be on the underside somewhere. Let me know. Thanks Found a few spare minutes and got the Purdey from the vault. It does NOT have the letters you are interested in. BUT, it does have JW on the barrel flats, I'm sure they are for James Whitworth. The letters you are interested in may only appear on Damascus barrels--- mine are fluid pressed steel. Bill
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,158 Likes: 250
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,158 Likes: 250 |
Kathy1 I take it that this is the type of Purdey snap action gun you have recently purchased.  Now I am not a purdey fount of all knowledge, though I do know a goodly amount about this Purdey gun because we have been together for some fifty years now. It was built in 1869 as a set of four its serial number is 798X and still having the original barrels it started life with. Yes there is a stamp at the end of the barrel hook by the central cartridge ejector mechanism.  On this gun it is TP and as far as I am aware those initials are the barrel maker who at this time where allowed to initial their work, I have always believed what I have been told from a number of sources that up to the 1870s Purdey purchased the Damascus tubes from Belgian makers, then built up the barrel sets in their own workshops. As you can see from the photograph this gun is the number 1 of the set with the serial number impressed on the barrel tubes not on the action flats consistent with its age.
The only lessons in my life I truly did learn from where the ones I paid for!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 732 Likes: 127
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 732 Likes: 127 |
Damascus, Let me make an alternative suggestion that your “TP” is actually a “JP”, which is stamped on my hammer Boss in a similar location and on the action itself. According to Dallas, Boss sourced barrels and even entire actions from John Portluck, a supplier to the trade. It is possible that Purdey sourced these barrels from Portluck. Part of the fun of these old guns is that we may never know all of the answers!
Owen
|
|
|
|
|
