doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com 2 inch 12 ga

Let me ask you a question, Miller. If it's "just a simple tube", as you said, can you explain why barrels made exactly the same, as near as man can make them the same, don't always pattern the same? I can assure you they don't, based on many years of patterning. There are generalities that can be "assumed" when assigning loads to barrel/choke combinations, but there are those individuals that do not follow the "rules". Why?

The easy answer is that they're not really the same, but are different. And, if they really are different, can one make assumptions that a simple tube with a certain bore and constriction will perform a certain way? A "certain way" meaning according to the median for that bore/constriction.

SRH

The new Kent Elites are available in a 3/4oz load of 8s. I think Fiocchi Light Trainers are available in a similar load.

RST lists 2" 3/4oz loads in 7-1/2 & 8-1/2's.

Nice thanks guys for the heads up on Kents, now where the hell to find them!

Stan;
All good & valid points & no I cannot explain all the little variations you mention, nor can anyone as far as I know. I will further add that we don't have to go so far as comparing different barrels to note these effects. Different loads, different sizes of shot & even different shells from the same loading will not give identical patterns. In speaking on this line we are always speaking of Averages.

I will thus ask one question of you. Do you have enough evidence to be statistically significant that a 28 gauge bore is less sensitive to these changes than any other size? If so I would certainly be interested in seeing it. Also, I would like to know how much variation from that .550" bore can be tolerated without losing the effect. Would a .560" or a .540" bore follow the same rule as a .550" one?

It is not truly necessary to be able to explain every variation, but the odds can be explained. Odds are likely at least 90:1 that a 28 will shoot like a 28, not like a 12.
It is also necessary to keep in mind that what one person calls a "Better" pattern another would find undesirable.

My ideal pattern would be one that if you patterned it on a 16-field pattern every field would have exactly the same number of pellets in them. This, of course, is not going to happen, but the closer to it the better in my opinion. Odds are that within reason of practicality the larger the hole a given shot load is fired through the more likely it is to have a more uniform pattern.

Excellent post, Miller. In answer to your question .....



.....no, I have no evidence that a 28 bore is less sensitive the these changes. Actually, I don't believe it is. What I think is that a 3/4 oz. 28 bore load seems to kill and crush targets more efficiently than it should, given it's payload. I cannot explain that. Neil Oldridge couldn't, and he had the ballistics labs of Remington at his disposal to do so. But, he believed it, too, in spite of not being able to explain it.

I certainly don't think the patterns are superior to those of a same quality 3/4 oz. load from a 12. Maybe I am fooled by the fact that I don't, and probably never will, shoot enough 3/4 oz. loads in 12 or 16 gauge to really have something solid to compare the 28 to.

So, we're at a bit of an impasse. I believe something I cannot prove, and it hasn't been disproven, either. But, I have enjoyed the exchange. And, as always, you challenge me to get my "stuff" together before I make a statement. I appreciate that. Thank you, as always, for what you contribute to my knowledge base.

All my best, SRH

Stan;
I too enjoy discussing things of this nature as long as they are done civilly & will have to say I don't think I have ever discussed anything with you that did not remain civil. I do think though that if you digest all I have said its really not all that unexplainable.

Let me just give a quick recap to think on. In that 16-field pattern, I mentioned, for instance, the inner circle is 15" with an outer ring of 30". The inner ring thus has 1/4th the area of the entire circle. "IF" you fired a pattern which put 120 pellets in the 30" circle with a uniform pattern there would be 30 in the inner circle with 90 in the outer ring. This is not going to happen, there will always be central thickening. Now suppose we fired that pattern from a 12 gauge & it gave us 40 pellets in the inner ring & 80 in the outer. Perhaps then we fired it from a 28 & had 50 in the inner ring & 70 in the outer. Either of these would not be unusual. The 28 would actually have a slightly longer range, but the 12 would have a little bit larger killing circle.
These patterns would be rather typical using 3/4 oz of #6 lead shot.

Then from another aspect consider 1 1/8 oz in the 12 & 3/4 oz in the 28. 1 1/8 oz contains 50% more shot than 3/4 oz. It will not, however, increase the range by 50% but more on the order of 22�%. Assuming similar patterns what 3/4 oz would do at 35 yards 1 1/8 oz would do at around 43 yards rather than 52� yards if it actually increased range proportional to the shot load.

The truly amazing part to me is that someone in a ballistics lab would find this "Unexplainable". Note that these yardages are not put forth as absolute limits, but merely as comparable ranges for the performance of the different loads.

Unless...........there really is something unexplainable there.

Therein lies the rub...............

All my best, SRH

Please elaborate. Physics is physics, and the pellets don't care whether they are launched from a big tube or a small tube. It's mass x velocity and air resistance and gravity, once they leave the muzzle, all other things being equal. Unless the argument is that the trailing pellets fired from the smaller tube are able to draft behind the leading pellets better than those from the larger tube because of pattern dispersion.

Consistent killing range of a shotgun is not based on the penetration of a single pellet. It is rather based on a pattern sufficiently dense to ensure a lethal hit with pellets having adequate energy to penetrate. Therefore with the same number of pellets in the entire pattern, the one having a higher central concentration would have a slight range advantage with a "Center" hit. It would, of course, require a more accurate shot placement, with less room for error. Yes its based on physics, but there's more to it than just individual pellet energy. "IF" we were speaking of a single hit then a .22 short would be a far better killer than any of the above-mentioned loads, if legal & provided you were a good enough shot to place it where you wanted it.