doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com 2 inch 12 ga

Stan, I think it's just one of those shotgun oddities that can't be explained "by the numbers". I always thought Brister made an excellent choice for the title of his book: "Shotgunning: The Art and the Science". And the examples he gave are very good ones. Both McIntosh and Gene Hill also commented on that old 12ga 1 1/4 oz pigeon load. And I think there are plenty of 16ga fans who will say there's some sort of magic in the combination of that gauge and a 1 oz load.

RA mentioned What He had Read, concerning the 28. I have been reading on things concerning guns for more than 60 years. It is absolutely amazing how many different opinions one will read on the same subject. It is often put forward that shells loaded to a lower velocity pattern better than Hi-Vel loads. This would appear to be the case with the 3�-� pigeon load but is the opposite in the 3/4 oz 28 load which has traditionally been loaded to a rather high velocity.
Many, many times I believe a comparison is made of "Premium" 28 loads versus "Promo" type loads in the larger gauges, thus not truly an equal comparison.

I once read an article by a well-known gun writer who was lauding the 28. He proclaimed it as giving an extraordinary performance with the 3/4 oz load because it was a perfect "Square Load. This he "Proved" by stating a square load was one in which the shot load was equal in weight to the round ball that fit the bore. He rightly stated this weight could be found by dividing 16 by the gauge of the gun, thus the 3/4 oz was a "Perfect Match".
Do the math 16/28 (which he did) = .57 rounded to two decimal places.
3/4 = .75. It is noted the two numbers have the same digits, but .57 is obviously not equal to .75. I know not if he was truly that dumb or just if one was foolish enough to buy that mag they were that dumb.
So basically my question is "WHAT" determines a "Good Match" for the shot weight in any given bore.

Don't get me wrong, I love a 28 for a "Little Gun" but there is absolutely Nothing Magic about it. If you put 3/4 oz of shot through both the standard 28 & the 2" 12 chances are I would guess about 95:1 the 28 would show a higher central thickness to the pattern with the 12 having a more uniform distribution. Which is "Best", a lot depends on what the shooter is looking for. "IF" he is looking to find the absolute longest range that something can be killed then the 28 is apt to have the edge. "IF" on the other hand the largest killing area from 3/4 oz of shot is desired then the 2" 12 has the edge.
Take your pick as to which road you prefer to travel, just don't expect it Both ways.

One thing that surprises many is that "Range is not proportional to shot weight. If this were true then, assuming near similar patterns except for the amount of shot, then a 1� oz load would have a 67% range increase over 3/4 oz. Thus what 3/4 oz would do at 35 yards 1� oz would do at 58 yards.

In reality, they are more proportional to the Sq Root of the shot load, thus the 1� oz load is only 29% longer range than 3/4 oz. Using these figures then the comparison of 3/4 oz with 1� oz is like 35 yds to 45 yds. This accounts for the vast amount of that "Smoke", people just expect the larger loads to increase range by much more than they do in actuality & do not want to believe the comparative effectiveness of the lighter load. The fact that the 3/4 oz load happens to be fired through a .550 " bore diameter has virtually "NOTHING" to do with the end results.

A shotgun is, in fact, a rather inefficient arm & ranges much beyond 40 yards take a load out of all proportions as to what can be achieved at the shorter ranges. As range increases shot size has to go Up for adequate penetration thus reducing pellet count for an adequate pattern density.

Miller you are right, I did read that and I took it to bank. I also used it as a simile to compare fly rod Line weight vs length, which was my original thought for the question I posed for the 2" load. I have 0 yrs experience in shotgun loads, the post on 2" guns really got the synapses firing as I find the 2" guns and loads absolutely fascinating and was curious to see what others thought. I dont believe there a definite answer for the 28, but the hyperbole made good use of my original query.

Miller, I have never upheld magazine writers as having an edge on reason, they don't, and they stretch reason to prove a point many times. No argument there. You give the example of the "well-known gun writer" who tried foolishly to prove the square load by some equation he derived himself. The fact that many writers come up with nonsensical ways to justify their writings in no way diminishes them all. Brister has stood the test of time. I'll support his findings, but that's just me. I certainly don't believe everything I read.

You may not agree, but I will also stand by my belief that there is a little something special about a 28 ga. 3/4 oz. load that has yet to be explained ...............empirically.

All my best, SRH

Stan;
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. A shotgun barrel is a simple tube. I have a copy of Brister's Art & Science & have yet to see a single thing which has proven any magic to a 28 ga bore. He did indicate some shorter shot strings with the 28 "BUT" also with 12 gauge Winchester Mark 5 shells. Careful study will I believe reveal that in both cases these were "Premium" loads utilizing harder shot than most of his other tests. Overall these tests where his wife was towing the target on a trailer were simply to limited to be truly significant.

Bottom line is the bigger the hole the greater its capacity, proportional to the Square of their diameters. 1 5/16 oz of shot in a 12 will have the same column length in the bore as 3/4 oz in a 28. The 28 will have a higher proportion of its shot in contact with the bore walls, also the choke. This very well explains the smaller bore having a higher concentration of its shot toward the center. Still nothing Magic, which cannot be explained regarding bore diameters. The further one wants to shoot the bigger the hole they need in the barrel. As Robert Rurak said, "Use Enough Gun", don't count on Magic.

Naw, Millers right. That's just a old wives tale about 3/4oz in a 28 is so great. It gets repeated so much everyone believes it. Well, almost everyone. If that were so, 3/4oz in a 12 would be outstanding because of the shorter shot column. Did Remington and others check the 3/4 in a 12 ? No. And I'm here to tell you it is outstanding because it's all I shoot at any clay pigeon game. Actually, it patterns too tight at skeet. I loaded some 2" Federal papers with fiber wads and 3/4oz of shot and let a good trap shooter at the club shoot a round. 25 good solid hits. Seriously, the 3/4oz 28ga is a good load. I just think too much is made of it. I also like 1oz in my 10ga guns. Now there's a nice soft shooting load with a great pattern.

Paul are these 2.75, 2.5 or 2 inch loads with 3/4oz? Are there any 3/4oz loads in production?

Just because we disagree doesn't mean I don't respect and appreciate your passion for explaining things with proven math and physics. I do, very much. You have explained many things for me that I did not previously know the reason for.

However, note a couple of things please. I didn't say that Brister proved any "magic" to the 28 bore, and please also note that the word "magic" was not initiated by me. I do not believe in magic. I believe there are things we cannot explain, but that does not mean they are magic. It just means that we do not have the knowledge to do so. I can believe, due to hundreds of thousands of rounds fired at clays, game, paper and pattern plates, that a particular load works better than it should (by the numbers). My 58 years of shotgunning should mean little to you, or anyone else, but do you totally discount Oldridge's statement? Reckon he was just a longtime ballistician there because he snowed everybody with theories and postulations?

We each are free to believe nothing that we cannot prove with numbers and reason. But, I believe even you do not go that far. You're a believer in gravity, I'll wager. Who can explain it? Where does it originate, how does it work? Why does it affect all things, not just ferrous, as with magnetism. How it works, and why, cannot be proven with math.............but it exists, obviously. How does it act equally to counteract the centrifugal force created by a spinning earth, and do so proportionally at the poles and at the equator? There is infinitely higher centrifugal force at the equator than at the poles, where there is basically none.

There are unexplainables in this realm. I may seem to be getting far out on a limb, but understand it's not me that's trying to prove anything, other than that there are things we cannot prove.

Best, SRH

Stan, per the above, I think I may be the guilty party who first mentioned "magic" in this discussion--although it was not in reference to the 28ga. But it's hard to overlook the mental aspect when it comes to shooting. Which can mean that if you believe your combination of gauge, choke and load is magic, the extra confidence that gives you may well result in better scores on targets and/or fewer misses when you're hunting.

Well Stan, Yes there are things I believe in which I cannot explain. Gravity as you mentioned, but if I hold an item out at arm's length & turn it loose & it goes up instead of down & can explain WHY. I have as yet not been shown irrefutable proof that 3/4 oz shot actually shoots better from a .550" bore than any other size, much less as to WHY.

I was not actually accusing anyone of using the term Magic, other than myself. The statement has been repeated so many times by so many different writers that 3/4 oz of shot just somehow shoots better than it has any right to, that I call that "Magic". I still warn all who will listen "Don't Rely on Magic". The 28 is a great little gun, but it won't do a thing ballistics wise that can't be done as well or better with a 20. Even a 16 or 12 will shoot 3/4 oz far better than people "Think" should be capable of being done with a mere 3/4 oz of shot. There is nothing magic or unusual about that either, so many think that if you double the shot charge you should double its effective range, but that is far from the truth. It is just hard to get people to accept that 3/4 oz of shot is as effective, even more so, at 23 yds as a 1� oz "Baby Magnum" is at 50. When it proves to be true, then they start screaming there is something special to that .550" bore that cannot be explained. Fact is there is nothing special about the hole size & its effectiveness can be (& has been) explained.