doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com J. Brazier, E. Chilton & J. Stanton.

Questions to the cognoscenti. These three lockmakers from Wolverhampton, are regarded being the top ones during the heyday of the English sport shotgun era. They worked for the trade. There is any record on whether any of them did excel or had a preference for a particular type of lockwork? Were their lockplates so different in their internal arragements (even those with the same amount of pins) that could be recognized from outside in the way the lock pins were distributed over the plate? Did they issued their own patents? The most important gunmakers, had they a noticiable preference for any one of these lockmakers or for a particular type of lockplate they made? There is any publication or author that did address this issue? EJSXS

There is a comprehensive documentation in
the Internet on the Wolverhampton Gunlock Makers
http://www.wolverhampton-gunlocks.fslife.co.uk.
I recommend you to contact the author, he may have the answer to
your questions.
Cheers
Felix Neuberger

Felix,

thanks, I did stumble with that website before, but it leads me to a shopping website wholy unrelated with our subject matter. (Do am I strinking the wrong keys?). EJSXS

I checked and the page is no longer active.
I had access to it sept 3, 2015 and then it has been a
very detailed 18-page document.
The e-mail of the author given in this document
has been:
wolverhampton-glms (at) fsmail.net
or
cvcl (at) wolverhampton-gunlocks.fslife.co.uk.
Author has been C.V.Clark with last revision of document
april 2015.
Propose to contact him by e-mail, if this
does not work, then I recommend you to contact
the Holts folks, they should know where to continue.
Cheers
Felix

If you can source a copy of 'Gun and Gun Part Makers of Staffordshire' by M A Newland that should have loads of information that you seek. If you are struggling I may be able to photocopy parts from the book and send them on. Lagopus.....

Damn! I often used the site for reference. Now it�s gone.

Felix, thanks for your advise, I will send a mail to that person.
Lagopus, I am aware that your book is difficult to find (Bookdepository, my usual book source in the UK, does not have it). Now, if you see that your copy has relevant information that may help me, please let my know and we could find a way to obtain another copy in the British secondhand market. Thanks in advance.

Any eMail/web addresses with "fslife", "fsnet", "fsmail", "freeserve" are likely to be out of use because the organisation that supplied them (FreeServe, an early UK based ISP) was taken over by Orange and those addresses were closed.

John,
One reference source for the subject lock makers is located in the book; English Gunmakers of the 18th and 19th century; By, De Witt Bailey and Douglas A. Nie.
Under the listings for the city of Wolverhampton there is recorded good information on the subject lock makers.

Thanks Roy,
I wasn't looking in fact, but noted that the addresses being quoted were now bound to be "no longer active" since the domains have been closed, but thanks anyway and I'm sure your reference will be of use to others here.

Stanton invented the rebounding lock. The simplicity of the invention, using the very same parts with some modification so as to retract the hammer, using the main spring for the job, plus the safety bent, for me ranks it as one of the great inventions in double gun design.

The locks were as per the original makers' design, I do not think that the lock maker had much to say in the design. What counted was the execution of the work and in that area I don't think there is any discernible difference in quality between the top lock makers in parts destined for best guns.

And though I have handled hundreds of english best I could never tell the difference till I looked inside for the lock maker's signature. Maybe others have a sharper sense and can tell.

I made several questions to the audience, after noticing that Steven D. Hughes in "Doubles Guns" 2007 stated that amongst side-by-sides, there was a 7 pin Holland & Holland Type Sidelock (pp.65-66), with a characteristic pin below the tumbler axle. Most gunmakers in Britain and the Continent copied it afterwards or produced derivatives of it. The other important type is the Beesley-Purdey-Atkin family of spring openers, with 7 pins but with a different arrangement over the plate, also recognizable at first sight. Now, from time to time other external pin arrangements have come to my attention, i.e. a S. Grant with 8 pins (a Twelve-Twenty), a Beesley and an Atkin with 6 pins, and so forth. (Aside, of course, of side-by-side guns of the 5 pin type).
On the other hand I have found another common 7 pin arrangement in most Hussey guns and also in some Lang and Grant shotguns, clearly different from the H&H pattern.
All of this without discussing the pin arrangements of Over and Under sidelocks.


HOLLAND & HOLLAND 7 pin pattern.
https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipO5gv78XJiZD54O_MlEixK-bFERYM1n9ECLrr8H?hl=es

HUSSEY (also in some Lang and Grant) 7 pin pattern.
https://photos.google.com/search/_tra_/photo/AF1QipOkBrkFts-hGMTQ6uyI_m_Bt048ycFSlaYHtFY4?hl=es

Note: Shotgunlover has a point, lock makers may had nothing to say in the design, it seems so far that gunmakers had favorite patterns. Only a statistical analysis or archival evidence could say the contrary, as to whether the Wolverhampton lock makers had their preferred types.

John Dickson , conversion with rebounding locks. It is marked Brazier Patent, but I don't know exactly what the patent was for, or by which Brazier the Patent was registered.

John,
Stanton locks;interior faces are seen on plate 49 in the book Game Guns and rifles ,by Richard Akehurst, The illustration show examples of Stanton rebounding locks, patent 367 of 1867 and the improved version patent 3774 of 1869.
Similar illustration s are seen in Vol;1 page 202 of The British Shotgun Vol 1 by Baker and Crudgington.

Interesting information on the three lock makers can be found on this post.

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=522397#Post522397

Thanks Daryl for this info.

A bit OT but it is interesting to note that the main purpose of the 2nd (1869) Stanton rebounding patent is often missed. If you look at the picture below, in a conversion from non-rebounding you will see that the sear spring would have to be sacrificed or moved to use the bottom arm of the main string to power the rebounding effect. The use of the patented main spring gets round this problem. Quite why it was used on the bar-lock pictured in The British Shotgun is beyond me other than the possibility it was specified in order to have the 'best and latest'!

It�s a shame that the true beauty of some guns is hidden in the locks. We never see the fine finish of a set of locks with their precise workings.

True, but I bet you are aware of the difference in Feel of a quality lock over a run of the mill one. I have no idea who made the locks on my W&C Scott pinfire but just one pull back for cocking immediately tells me it is a very high quality lock.