doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Interesting Reilly's on UK Gunbroker; 410 & Pigeon

Most .410's of that vintage were made with 2 " chambers. The 2 1/2" cartridge did not appear until around 1913. The little 2 inch ones were often called collector's guns because they were intended for taxidermy specimen collectors. I have 2; a single and a double, that have had the chambers lengthened and then passed re-proof. Not that many were made and are usually of top quality. Lagopus.....

Stan, considering the 8# upper limit imposed on later English pigeon guns, are you looking for a early Brit hammer gun?

DDA

Not necessarily, Don. Actually, the heavier English pigeon guns were built after the introduction of smokeless powder to the sport. Cyril Adams, in his extensive and one-of-a-kind book Live Pigeon Trap Shooting mentions that the increased velocities, thus increased recoil, that came about due to smokeless caused the average pigeon gun's weight to go from 7 - 7 1/2 lbs. to 7 1/2 - 8 lbs.

You've got me at a disadvantage concerning the weight limit you mentioned. Where do you reference that? I find no mention of it in his chapter on the guns. Perhaps I overlooked it somewhere else in the book, but I don't think so.

There are certain specs that the gun I search for must possess, but most certainly I would not pass up a gun that was otherwise perfect but only weighed 7 - 12. I can always add a bit of weight "surreptitiously". Heck, my KickKiller leather lace-on pads add 5 oz., alone. However, having a couple of hammer guns in the 7 -3 range, I do not want to be shooting 1 1/4 oz. loads in a gun that light. Just too hard to manage.

SRH.

This is something I bumped into a few years ago, but will have to do some research for chapter and verse rules. I am sure of the accuracy, though.

Any of our UK members kn ow about this rule?

DDA

Thanks, Don. I emailed Cyril and posed the question to him as well. Maybe we'll get to the bottom of it.

SRH

Don, and others interested, Cyril got back to me about this. Basically, the rules for the weight of pigeon guns were set at individual clubs, major shoots and associations. Mr. Adams described it thusly:

"------in Live Pigeon Trap Shooting on page 245, the notices
reproduced from the 1909 (Interstate)pigeon shooting rules state that in England, the maximum gun weight is eight pounds.
Also, on page 244, the 1900 Grand American Handicap states that eight pounds is the maximum weight of guns to be used in that shoot.
Each Club seems to have its own rules, many of which were in effect from long usage and not formalized in the rules. By 1900 or so, most of them had dropped their restrictions on gun weight.
There never was a minimum weight, so most Pigeon Guns weigh between
seven and nine pounds, depending on the strength and the desires of the shooter."

So, it seems that there was period wherein maximum weight was attempted to be limited to 8 lbs. maximum, but that was pretty much dropped by the last couple decades of pigeon shooting in England. By 1921 it was about over in England anyway, after the institution of The Captive Bird Shooting Act.

Sound like what you remember?

SRH

Yes, but it was more "restrictive" as presented to me and/or as I processed it. My understanding was that Brit made pigeon guns of late 1890's on that were over 8# were most likely made for shooting on the continent. I don't claim expertise on this subject, but find it an interesting side note for Brit pigeon guns to be useful as sporting clays guns and/or to generalize their handling properties.

Good thought to contact Adams. He is an expert!!

DDA