doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Interesting Reilly's on UK Gunbroker; 410 & Pigeon

As you all know, I've been compiling a history of Reilly. Browsing the net tonight I came across these two interesting Reilly's for sale in UK. No prices mentioned. If I were anywhere but in the middle of the Sahara, I'd be tempted by the 410 especially.

SN 25851 (1884 per chart above) - with Metric bore measurements, it might have been ordered from Paris.
https://www.guntrader.uk/guns/shotguns/reilly-em/hammer/410-gauge/side-lever-180723174108286
Beautifully scaled little 410 hammer-gun ( collectors piece ) , reproofed 2007 and very rarely fired since ! bores in particularly good condition , unusual to find a 410 with Damascus barrels -- top rib reads E M Reilly & co 16 New Oxford Street, London & RUE SCRIBL PARIS . metric bore measurement 10.50mm in both tubes and estimated chokes LH 1/4 RH 1/8 with the chambers being 2 1/2" as seen in photos attachted .




SN 24365 (1882 per above chart)
https://www.guntrader.uk/guns/shotguns/reilly-em/hammer/12-gauge/pigeon-gun-180629095732002
Best Quality Hammer Pigeon gun with 31" black powder proof Whitworth steel barrels and flat file cut rib. The heavy action with side clips and low hammers. Very well figured stock expertly repaired at wrist. Extra long forend with anson push rod release. In original makers Leather case with trade label.

410 �poa

-------------------------------

Reilly, E. M. 12 gauge Pigeon Gun (Top Lever)
Hammer Shotgun (R/H) - S/H

�1,895 US$2,484 /�2,133

Stan In Georgia has been looking for something like the pigeon gun. Somebody notify him.

PM sent to Stan

Looks as if original proof was for the 2" shell with 3/8 oz of shot. Has been re-proofed @ 65mm, approx 2 9/16".

It's really immaterial though, anyone who has been following this board for about the last week should be fully aware a gun weighing only 4 lb 3 oz & with a side lever opener is total Junk, not worth carrying home.

I will have to admit though "IF" I could find one of that weight I could afford I would be greatly tempted even though I am absolutely NOT a .410 fan.

If, as so many say, a gun has to weigh at least 6 lbs for me to be able to hit anything with it, it may as well be a 20 or 16.

Thanks for remembering, fellas, but I have my doubts this is even a true pigeon gun. I looked at it closely, and at 7 lbs., and with 1/4 choke in one barrel, 2 1/2" chambers and a straight grip, it's not what I want.

I'll keep watching, but I really appreciate the heads up. You're all good friends.

SRH

As I recall Stan wants:
-- hammer gun
-- 32" barrels
-- 8 lbs plus
-- pistol grip
-- double triggers
-- Damascus is ok
-- 3" chambers
-- a certain elegance
-- Specific chokes - 4/4 and 4/4
-- flat and file cut rib

We'll keep looking

Just about right, but 2 3/4" chambers are fine if there is heavy nitro proofs.

Have a great weekend, SRH

I would question what looks like deep pits in the right barrel, near the end of the forend, of the �pigeon� gun.

The 410 Metric bore measurements are as the re-proof, not original.

Most .410's of that vintage were made with 2 " chambers. The 2 1/2" cartridge did not appear until around 1913. The little 2 inch ones were often called collector's guns because they were intended for taxidermy specimen collectors. I have 2; a single and a double, that have had the chambers lengthened and then passed re-proof. Not that many were made and are usually of top quality. Lagopus.....

Stan, considering the 8# upper limit imposed on later English pigeon guns, are you looking for a early Brit hammer gun?

DDA

Not necessarily, Don. Actually, the heavier English pigeon guns were built after the introduction of smokeless powder to the sport. Cyril Adams, in his extensive and one-of-a-kind book Live Pigeon Trap Shooting mentions that the increased velocities, thus increased recoil, that came about due to smokeless caused the average pigeon gun's weight to go from 7 - 7 1/2 lbs. to 7 1/2 - 8 lbs.

You've got me at a disadvantage concerning the weight limit you mentioned. Where do you reference that? I find no mention of it in his chapter on the guns. Perhaps I overlooked it somewhere else in the book, but I don't think so.

There are certain specs that the gun I search for must possess, but most certainly I would not pass up a gun that was otherwise perfect but only weighed 7 - 12. I can always add a bit of weight "surreptitiously". Heck, my KickKiller leather lace-on pads add 5 oz., alone. However, having a couple of hammer guns in the 7 -3 range, I do not want to be shooting 1 1/4 oz. loads in a gun that light. Just too hard to manage.

SRH.

This is something I bumped into a few years ago, but will have to do some research for chapter and verse rules. I am sure of the accuracy, though.

Any of our UK members kn ow about this rule?

DDA

Thanks, Don. I emailed Cyril and posed the question to him as well. Maybe we'll get to the bottom of it.

SRH

Don, and others interested, Cyril got back to me about this. Basically, the rules for the weight of pigeon guns were set at individual clubs, major shoots and associations. Mr. Adams described it thusly:

"------in Live Pigeon Trap Shooting on page 245, the notices
reproduced from the 1909 (Interstate)pigeon shooting rules state that in England, the maximum gun weight is eight pounds.
Also, on page 244, the 1900 Grand American Handicap states that eight pounds is the maximum weight of guns to be used in that shoot.
Each Club seems to have its own rules, many of which were in effect from long usage and not formalized in the rules. By 1900 or so, most of them had dropped their restrictions on gun weight.
There never was a minimum weight, so most Pigeon Guns weigh between
seven and nine pounds, depending on the strength and the desires of the shooter."

So, it seems that there was period wherein maximum weight was attempted to be limited to 8 lbs. maximum, but that was pretty much dropped by the last couple decades of pigeon shooting in England. By 1921 it was about over in England anyway, after the institution of The Captive Bird Shooting Act.

Sound like what you remember?

SRH

Yes, but it was more "restrictive" as presented to me and/or as I processed it. My understanding was that Brit made pigeon guns of late 1890's on that were over 8# were most likely made for shooting on the continent. I don't claim expertise on this subject, but find it an interesting side note for Brit pigeon guns to be useful as sporting clays guns and/or to generalize their handling properties.

Good thought to contact Adams. He is an expert!!

DDA