doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com 410 recomendation for game shooting

Been thinking for awhile on picking up a 410 for dove shooting and maybe some occasional clays.
I would be looking in the 2 - 3 K range.
I have shot a Model 42 with a full choke at doves before but wonder what others may think would be a better suggestion.
Interested in knowing what you guys have tried and is a proven winner.

Nicest one I have ever seen is a Parker, very expensive. . If I was going to buy one would be a model 42 .

Phillip at MidSouth Wagram NC had a large inventory of 410s. Doubles and pumps few months ago. Starting which him be a good idea.

Boats

Mike;

Drive over to your local Academy Sports store and view and handle one of the Yildiz SxS .410 shotguns. If you have not seen one, you will be amazed at what you can buy for about $450.00. These guns are not junk but quality CNC built actions and tried and true single trigger designs similar to the Brownings. I bought one when the first hit the shores in the USA several years back. The quality of the Turkish walnut that is on these guns is worth the price of the entire gun.

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/771061140

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/779485506

I shoot a Brittany SXS, a Daly O/U, Win 42 pump, and Rem 1100 auto in pure 410.

But many other have tube or barrel sets

Mike

side by side, lots of choices
https://www.gunbroker.com/Side-By-Side-Shotguns/search?Keywords=410&Sort=13&PageSize=24

I shoot a Yildiz, a Dickinson, a Verona O/U, have a Stoeger that I shortened for the grandkids, and am awaiting the arrival of a I. Rizzini Iside Tartaruga Gold that is being built to my specs in Italy. My favorites so far are the Verona and the Dickinson, but I've killed more doves and quail with the Yildiz. Had it longer. Exceptional value for the money.

SRH

I have a bunch of .410s and my favorite is a Browning Feather XS Sporting with 30" barrels. It is almost perfect, also discontinued, sometimes available around $2K. I have heard that Browning now has a Citori .410 with 32" barrels. 42s are nice, but I get tired of chasing those tiny hulls in the brush.

A good option if you can find it would be the Ruger Red Label 28ga in 28" with a set of the Ruger-labeled Briley .410 tubes. Gun is light enough that the tubes don't matter much, you get two gauges, and the Ruger tubes have 3" chambers.

For the use you describe, don't go too light, at least 6 1/2 lbs. to smooth out dynamics. The last thing you want is a sub-6 lb. whippy, short barreled .410 for dove and clays. I would suggest a Beretta 687 Silver Pigeon II with 30" barrels if you could find one. Call Joel Etchen Guns and see if they can put one together for you. You might also check with the Beretta Galleries in Dallas and NY, they sometimes have guns regular dealers do not. Good luck in your search.
JR

Excellent recommendation.

Having shot a 20 ga. 687 SP II Sporting way over 15K times at doves I highly recommend them. Should be a wonderful dove gun in 410.

SRH

On further thought, the Browning 725 Sporting with 30 or 32 inch barrels would be hard to beat. Joel Etchen has them for $2775 in stock. Good people to do business with.
JR

I like my 42 a lot. It�s full choked and hammers birds at reasonable ranges. Out to 30-33 yards it is just as effective on early season Dove as any gauge I shoot. I shoot .410 a lot and range/choke selection to me is key. You can�t use a .410 Skeet choked gun and kill Dove at much past 20-25 yards tops. A full choked .410 is over choked if the bird gets inside 15 yards but from 15-30 it shines and that�s where I try to shoot most of my birds. Dead is dead.

I have a Ruger 28 with .410 tubes. It has a nice feel to it with the tubes in but never tried it on dove. Might be worth a try.

When you buy your .410 forget about getting a full choke, don�t even think about it! I think that one reason so many people despise .410�s is from their childhood experiences shooting a full-choked single barrel .410 as their first gun, that�s a combination that�d make anyone hate the gun. In my opinion modified is as tight as you�ll ever need. For the .410�s I�ve owned it�s always been either open or skeet in my right barrel and IM or modified in my left barrel.

Steve

PS KY Jon posted his thread while I was posting mine. I can see we disagree on full chokes which is okay, whatever works best for him and we agree about the too-tight pattern close in. However, it's been my experience that a modified will consistently throw a good pattern out to 30 yards and give you better patterns closer in. However, after 30 yards forgetaboutit! BTW I have some photos of patterns I shot at 50', 75' and 90' however, if I posted the photo's people would go blind trying to see them (I should've circled the hits with a marking pen).

Dance with who brung ya...�����. your Model 42 is one of the best for your purpose.

You might want to think about sinking your funds into an upgrade to a vent rib Model 42 Deluxe Gun (if it's a field grade)

I have one of the Miroku/Browning Model 42 clones - it's a sweet shooter, and not hard to look at, either.


.

Unless you're a long time pump-gunner, I would stay away from the little model 42, sweet as it is.
JR

Rockdoc, the difference between Mod and Full in a .410 is .005-.007 at best according to Briley who make most of the choke tubes today. Winchester were known for boring their guns slightly more open and Browning more tightly. If you measure �factory� 42 chokes they are all over the map. Perhaps because owners opened them up over the years, perhaps they started more open then we expect, I just don�t know. I have several 42, both mod and full with chokes which differ by as little as .003. I know you pattern you guns to see real performances and so do I. And if you want to see people�s eyes glass over talk about ten patterns of each load. I think most of these �shooters� think being able to hit a sign, along the side of the road, is still a good way to check both POI and pattern.

As to starting a new shooter out with a .410 I am in agreement with those who feel any .410 for a new shooter will frustrate them too quickly regardless of the choke. Better to use a 20 or 28 with 3/4 ounce shot, to have a working pattern, for high number of breaks. Plus 20 ammo is cheaper than .410. I started out with a 28 and so did all my kids.

I do see a few old farts who seem to preach that the .410 is capable in all hunting situations. It clearly is not in my mind. It handicaps a good shooter, makes him work harder to remain as good as others using bigger bores. With a 12 gauge, in early season I probably could shoot my limit with 15 shells. Birds are easy until they get educated. I shoot .410 to make it last and to challenge myself to shoot better. If fact you need to restrain yourself to taking better shots with a .410 because it is not the equal of its bigger brothers. If you can do that with a Mod or Full choke gun more power to you.

A second on the Dickenson Estate. Mine in .410 is a hoot to shoot. Adult dimensions really help here. Good ammo is also critical.

" I shoot .410 to make it last and to challenge myself to shoot better".
Challenging oneself to shoot better is indeed a good point. My question though is of the misses with a .410 how many of them flew off with a shot or two from the weak fringe of a .410's pattern.

I have not done that much pattern testing with a .410 for I never had a desire to use one. I have however observed the pattern test which the Rifleman has posted over many years in trying new guns. The .410 patterns virtually always have strong central thickening with sparse fringes. This is directly opposite of my most desirable pattern. I fully realize it is impossible to obtain but if I could get it I would take a pattern with absolute uniformity over the entire pattern where every shot would result in either a clean kill or total miss.

I therefore do not hunt with a .410, period.

Also would like to know if you guys shoot the little 2 1/2" shells at doves or stick mainly to the 3" ones.
I have considered looking at the new SKB 410's as my club, Deep River Sporting handles the SKB guns.
I realize most American side by side 410's were made on the 20 gauge frame.

I find my 2 1/2 ammo works great for close in doves.
First is an old small frame Browning Superposed with 410 barrels, skeet choked



Second is the Tristar Brittany, IC screw-ins, a Fausti, and a Crescent, all in 410.

My experience mirrors Jon's.

Here are some measurements I've taken. The "mod" 42s have between 0.005" and 0.007" constriction. The skeet guns range from 0.003" to 0.011" (yup). Full choke bbls have 0.016" to 0.020".

My repro came to me with Briley CTs. We don't shoot doves, but have an idea it would work just fine. Son and I use it for SC - mostly with the 0.014" IM. Repros are anything but whippy. Couple of repros took CH and RU at the ME state NSCA few years back. We sometimes use it in "Fluff" 12 ga events.

Field use in Maine translates as grouse/WC. I've used skeet/mod guns. In my hands, the full guns add nothing useful for those birds inside 25 yds. The 3" loadings are diverse; it pays to try different brands on the pattern board. For guns with less constriction try RP 3" #7.5s first.

I shoot 2-1/2" hard 8s, FullxMod, sometimes 7-1/2s if there is a breeze. Can't remember the last time I put a 3" shell in the gun.

FYI, my Uggie SxS from Aspen Outfitters is marked ICxMod but it mics at 11 and 17 thousandths. Seems like a good combo for doves. I never mic'd my other .410s, just put in the Full and Mod chokes and left them there.

Dickinson with .008" and .008" fixed chokes, WW 3/4 oz. factory 3" load at 20 yds. These were shot for regulation testing, but show what a dense, though small, pattern it is. This is a pattern easily good for another 5-10 yds. on a dove.

Right bbl.



Left bbl.



More choke will extend the range to 30-35 yards easily.

All the conventional thinking and looking at patterns in magazines means nothing. Shooting your gun with your loads on a plate or paper is the only way to see for yourself.

Once more for the record .................... shot from a .410 is just as deadly as shot from a 12 ga., if it is at the same velocity. The important thing is having sufficient density in the pattern to put a sufficient number of them in the bird.

SRH

Pretty nice little Beretta w/30" barrels and sufficient weight @ 6lb. 9 oz.
https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-f...un_id=101039936
JR

I use nothing smaller than 7 1/2 on Dove with the .410. 7�s if I can find a bag to reload. I shoot mostly 2 1/2� shells at 1300 FPS which pattern very well in my gun. Later season Dove, may be best shot with 3� shells because they tend to be better feathered and just a bit smarter. Remington 3� 7 1/2�s and 6�s pattern well in my 42 but I have not used sixes on late season Dove. They did take pen raised pheasant last year.

I don�t like 8 1/2 or 9�s as some recommend for Dove or Qual, trying to increase the number of pellets in the payload. Flyers, using small pellets will not kill birds but one or two 7-7 1/2 will if well placed. Four or five 9�s won�t at range. I am a big proponent of knowing ranges and sticking within ranges you can shoot well. Give me a 12-18� working pattern, which is what a .410 can give you at proper chokes and decent range and I can take Dove all day long. I don�t like the 6-9� patterns when Dove get so close its like shooting a High or Low 8 in Skeet. I just let them go and say a few choice words.

I have been thinking about taking my 42 with me to Argentina next year if I go. I�ll put up with the hassle to see if I can kill 1,000 dove a day once with it.

Lots of great suggestion, I chase doves with a little AYA #2, 410 with 28" barrel mod/full. I also have an old R.E.M. Model 11-48 Auto in 410. Lots of fun.
Keep us posted on what you end up with

Just now spotted this on SBFG site:
https://stevebarnettfineguns.com/winches...-410-2?rq=18951
Great little gun, priced just a bit high though. I wouldn't wait if you like it...
JR

.410 O/Us are a lot of fun. I just restocked mine, as the buttstock that came with it was just way too high. I found a cracked field model buttstock in NV, repaired the crack and fitted it. Turned out perfect for me, shoots much better now, and doves better watch out this coming season (which, but the way, is 44 days, 13 hrs., 52 mins., and 38 seconds away).

It's the Verona, made by I. Rizzini, and a great quality little Italian O/U. 30" barrels, choked .004" btm. and .011" top. Maybe the most undervalued O/U on the market today.





SRH

Stan, pity the barrels are up and down instead of the proper way, side by side. It does look like a fun gun. Hope you shoot it well.

Yeah, I know. But it's still a fun gun, and it has another set of barrels with it's own forend in 28. This will be the first hunting season that I'll really get to give it a good wringing out on doves. I've tried it on sporting clays with the 28 barrels, and the new buttstock, and shot a 84 on medium difficulty targets. I was pleased with that. Tied the high man on our squad who shot an 84 with his 12 ga.

Look out doves.

SRH

What are you looking for sbs or o/u?


John

PALUNC,

All the .410's mentioned so far are nice guns, I have one more modern .410 to add to the list. The L.C. Smith made by Zabala for Marlin a few years back, is a real nice SxS double gun, for gunning Doves and Woodcock.

The original L.C. Smith .410 is still available also, however way out of your quoted price range. If you would like a very high quality .410, Ken Graft at the Shooting Star Gun Shop had an upgraded L.C. Smith .410 with deep relief gold Engraving for around $14,000, that he offered to me, he may still it.

I own the modern L.C. Smith 28 Gauge almost identical to the Zabala made .410, and like it a bunch. The L.C. Smith .410 has nice Walnut Wood, a Purdey type lock up Breech Work, Flur De Lee checkering, SST, nice modern Spanish Engraving and Chrome lined Barrels, and comes with 4 flush type screw in chokes.

The draw back is no Brown Rotary Bolt and this L.C. Smith .410 is only available with 26" Barrels.

Look around and you can pick one up a modern L.C. Smith double gun, for about $1,800 - $2,200, right in your price range.

Ryman Gun Dog
L.C. Smith Man

My L.C. Smith 28 Gauge, almost identical to the L.C. Smith .410.

It ain't an L. C. Smith, Dave, it's a Zabala, for the umpteenth time. And it's too light and whippy with 26" barre;s for clays and dove.
JR

Stretching the budget, but really nice with some weight:

https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-f...un_id=100564606
JR

John, au contraire.

My Tristar Zabala Brittany in 410 really works well for clays and doves and I would bet a wonderful grouse gun. See picture above, page 2.

Mike

JR,
It says L.C. Smith on the gun, Marlin Contracted Zabala in Spain to make/supply a modern L.C. Smith double gun, not a reproduction. Marlin had the rights/ownership to L.C. Smith, and now Remington has purchased Marlin giving them ownership of L.C. Smith.

It is legally an L.C. Smith Zabala made gun for Marlin. I put the gun in my L.C. Smith Collection with all the Originals, granted the gun is not a Side lock with the Brown Rotary Bolt, it's a Box lock with side plates, and is a far cry from the original Hunter Arms L.C. Smith Engineering.

Further the 26" Barrels are not whippy and I shoot Doves, Woodcock & Grouse just fine with mine. The .410 is almost exactly the same gun.



skeettx,

Mike the Grouse in the prior picture with the L.C. Smith 28, was shot over Penny's point with that exact gun, the .410 comes on the same frame. I have had absolutely no problem hunting with mine what so ever.

Ryan Gun Dog

I have the exact model of Guerini John Roberts recommended in 28 gauge. It's probably the gun I shoot best and I've shot it a bunch without so much as a hiccup. Guerini's warranty is first class, as is their service. Go for it.

Is that 7lb 7oz the correct weight for this gun. Yes I would have to say "Some Weight". The only reason I can envision for owning a .410 is "Lack of Weight". I have a 16 gauge Halifax (Darne) that weighs 5lb 14oz. I have sent a few 20's down the road because they weighed in at 7lb. At that weight no reason for it to be anything but a 12. I have a couple of 16's, one Lefever & one Baker which weigh in a 6 3/4lbs each. That is absolute tops for a 16 in my opinion.

I still have the Model 42. It's a pre - war with 26" barrels, full choke.
I have been looking at a B Rizzini round action in a 28 / 410 combo.
Yes and also the new SKB in the 410. The new SKB's come with a single trigger and not sure how reliable it would be,

Mike, the SKB and the Dickinson are both made by AKUS in Turkey. I've not shot an AKUS SKB S x S, nor even seen one, but can vouch for the quality of the Dickinson. Mine has very good double triggers and ejectors, and I have never had one iota of buyer's regret. Dickinsons are sold through Cabela's and Pacific Sporting Arms, and maybe some smaller shops, too. They carry a lifetime warranty to the original owner, and are serviced by Briley's.

Just wanted to make sure you knew that. Good luck, man.

SRH

Saying it on the side "don't make it so". CSMC is building a redesigned RBL for Savage and putting Fox on the side of it. That don't make it so. You know exactly what John meant.

SRH

Is this one cheap enough?

http://www.ows-ammo.com/store/index.php?...roducts_id=1391

or this one?

http://www.ows-ammo.com/store/index.php?...roducts_id=1401

Then you should broaden your vision, 2-piper. Never assign certain weight parameters to a shotgun gauge, but only to its purpose. A well-balanced 7 1/2 lb. long-barreled .410 is pure fun on clays and doves. A serpentine little marvel with no recoil.
JR

Ok, Ill go along with L.C. Smith Zabala made gun for Marlin, but it ain't an L. C. Smith. You know it, I know it, Marlin knows it, Zabala knows it, everybody knows it. End of story.
JR

JR,

You are certainly welcome to your own opinion, I understand your thinking and I agree that the Zabala engineering on the modern 28 Gauge L.C. Smith is not only different from the original Hunter Arms L.C. Smith guns, the quality is definitely not even comparable.

If Marlin would have contracted Uggie to make a true Side Lock, with the Brown Rotary Bolt, the modern 28 would have been accepted more readily, by the owners of the original L.C. Smith double guns.

Now that Remington owns the rights to Hunter Arms L.C. Smith, it would be great if Remington Contracted Tony G to produce a real 28 Gauge #5 Hunter Arms L.C. Smith Double Gun, with all the correct Hunter Arms Engineering. Including the Krupp Barrels, Brown Rotary Bolt, DT, or SST, Jeweled Side Lock Internal Works and choice of either single or double safety, and screw in chokes only as a special order option. I do believe Remington received the last of the original Hunter Arms French Walnut Wood when they purchased Marlin, so original wood stock should not be a problem, at least for a limited run.

I know at one time Tony wanted to make the L.C. Smith, as he has done with the Fox, he may not even want to now, the cost today could be staggering and prohibitive, and contracting the engraving to be similar to Kraus's would be a serious challenge.

We can only dream that it might happen. Where and when do I send my down payment!

Ryman Gun Dog

I have not used a 410 on wild game since I was a kid, but I have used a 16 with 410 inserts on preserve birds with good effect. You found just buy an adapter set to play with a bit before going whole hog into another gun.

To the OP & in the FWIW Dept. I've had good results on dove using the 3" Fiocchi ammunition loaded w/ 11/16oz. #7.5 shot in a model 42 w/full choke.

Stan's previously noted distance limitations are accurate in my experience as well. Flukes happen, but you can't take them to the bank.

I'd say to use what points best for you; dove can be fleeting targets and use the above ammo if you are using a 3" chambered gun or the newer 2.5" WWAA sporty clays rounds in #8.5 for best results. I'm not a fan of the smaller shot sizes for bagging dove, but that particular ammo has printed some very nice patterns on the grease plate for me & produced some impressive scores in sporty clays competitions for others. Dove are not hard to kill, but they can be difficult to hit.

I hav e a Red Label 28 gauge Ruger. Does anyone know where I could find a set of these Briley .419 tubes?

Ah,l let's make that ".410 tubes"!!

Briley. http://www.briley.com/c-418-fitted-tube-sets.aspx

Cheaper Than Dirt (NOT!!!!) https://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/...736676901838.do

SRH

Briley made the tube sets for Ruger. with Ruger labels. At that time the Ruger sets had 3" chambers for hunters, while the Briley-labeled sets came with 2-1/2" chambers for skeet shooters. Pretty sure they came in both 26" and 28". I have a Red Label 28g/28" (sweet gun) and I don't recall ever seeing a set of Ruger tubes in the secondary market. With the discontinuation of the Red Label, it's probably worth calling Ruger to see if they have any tube sets sitting in the warehouse. I'm just guessing that if you call Cheaper Than Dirt, they will tell you they don't actually have any of those tube sets. Seems to be SOP for them the last few years.

My collection houses many .410s, but the ultimate for doves and pheasants is a 30" Iver Johnson Skeeter with Miller trigger and ejectors. Yes, 30" barrels heavy on the chokes. Don't make me any offers on it, since I have told The Lovely Linda to send it to Stan if anything tragic ever happened to me. He is a great guy and knows which end the shot comes out.

Bill, I hope that you and I both live very long, productive lives, and that we meet our end here gently. I am humbled by your thoughtfulness. Blessings on you and the lovely Ms. Linda.

BTW, your p.m. box is full and won't accept any more messages.

SRH

Agree with JR on this. I don't have any 7 1/2 lb 410s, but a friend that really drug me into 410s for game had a CSM M21 on a 20ga frame that weighed exactly that...and a matching 28ga. He hunted the country and other places in the world with that gun. More weight than I liked for upland though. My favorite upland 410 is a 1927 Ithaca NID with 28" tubes and ejectors. It weighs around 6lbs 2 oz. and swings better for me than any other upland gun. It's not the prettiest, but it takes game reliably. I found it's mate many years and 3000 miles from the first. 3 numbers apart and made on the same shop order. It too is a 28" ejector. My recollection is, Walt Snyder has no records indicating 28" 410 NID guns were made. But these are no doubt factory guns.

Some old memories...

My old "duck dog" with my dolled up 410 LeFever Nitro in foreground. She never hunted ducks, but could produce quail as well as some pointers. RIP Jasmine.



Me and bro-in-law in Kansas with my then new pointer that pee'd on Last Dollar Chuck's floor and my duck dog. The dolled up 410 LeFever again. The pointer turned into a great hunter, but Amarillo Mike had some good laughs that hunt when she busted some huge numbers of pheasant...cleared a section as I recall. RIP Sky

On the question of 2 1/2" vs 3" shells, I use both. For short distance quail shooting over a pointer, 2 1/2" is fine. Over a flushing dog 3". Dove down low, the AA Sporting 2 1/2" load at 1300 fps is deadly.

The alien Eurasian Dove is different game bird. These birds are half again bigger than a Morning Dove and the high flyers are tough as a pigeon to bring down. I switched to 3" #6 410 shells for these and I was dropping them out of the stratosphere. On one hunt in Yuma, we encountered more Eurasians than all others.
They were all very high flying past a small grove of trees we had decided to defend. My 410 mentor was using his usual 1300 fps AA load of #8s. I had several flats of different loads and after being somewhat disappointed in the performance of the #7 1/2 3" load, I went to the #6 3" load just to see whats what. The high flying Eurasians started dropping reliably. I was having so much success that my friend came over to see what I was doing to kill so many. I finally shared that I was using #6 3" shells.

I sure miss our ol'buddy Mikey....

Since Mike was asking about reasonably priced 410s, and since Chuck's photos show his engraved Lefever 410, I was going to suggest a Lefever 410 as a possibility. I believe most of them would fall within the $2 to $3 thousand range, and it seems like there usually are a few for sale on GI. Besides, looking at Chuck's photos, they seem to work.

By the way Chuck, what shot size did you use on the pheasants? It would not have occurred to me to use a 410 on wild pheasants, but perhaps my thinking is too conventional. In a good pheasant year in South Dakota, it might be fun to use a 410 and choose your shots so that you could hunt longer.

______________________________________________________
A little hard work never hurt anyone; but why risk it?

I had a .410 NS, it was a nice gun but like most older NS's it had about 3" DAH, other than that it was okay. I used it for awhile on pen-raised pheasants when I was training my dog but got tired of having to adjust for the excessive DAH.

Steve

Colin,
The first So. Dak wild rooster I shot with a .410, that LeFever, I used a 3" #7 1/2. After a bit, I switched to #6. I've also tried #5 and #4. My thoughts are that #6 and #5 are about right. I like the #5s in a tight choke for line dancing the cornfields and can kill reliably in the 30-35 yd range. If shooting over a point, #7 1/2 or 6 are fine. Yes, you can hunt longer, waiting for "your shot" while hunting a 410 with a group.

Those pheasant hanging on the post were shot with Mike's gun. But I was rootin for him. He had hung them for his picture, which I took of him and his Britts. I just used his for the backdrop rather than hang my much more awesome roosters.

ColinM,

I have an original DT/DH Savage .410 O/U it has no SN, the 6's do a bang up job on Pheasants out to about 35 yards. I have used the 5's from time to time also, but the 6's actually hold a better pattern, and work better.

Ryman Gun Dog
L.C. Smith Man

Skeettx or anyone,
Educate me a bit this morning. Please identify and describe that "fixture" on the end of the barrels of that Superposed. This a new one for me.

Perry
I have a full set of these, 12, 20. 28 & 410.

The 12, 20 & 28 are black and the 410 are just aluminum. The Superposed is a 20 gauge frame with Browning 20 gauge barrels and Cordy 28 & 410 barrels.

The mated 12 gauge is a normal RKLT Superposed skeet gun.

When all the comps are installed they have the same width visually



They work wonderfully !!!
Mike

Now that I have seen them up close and not attached they are easier to determine just what they were!! Were these made by Cutts? BTW, I think I would prefer the blued to the aluminum. They do look interesting.

Wow. Those things are uglier than a Poly Choke.
JR

John
You always bring great joy to my heart with your helpful comments
Mike

skeettx,

Mike nothing like a little south Texas wit, I love it.

Ryman Gun Dog
L.C. Smith Man