doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com A Theophilus Murcott pinfire

I am gathering information on a 12-bore Theophilus Murcott pinfire game gun, number 1194. Unfortunately it is in poor condition, and it was converted in its working life to centre-fire � but it is the only Murcott pinfire I�ve ever come across. Perhaps someone else has a Murcott pinfire and can help shed some light on some of the details?

The barrel rib is marked �Theops Murcott 68 Haymarket London SW�, so I�m presuming it was made after 1866. It has an unmarked Jones-type double screw grip action. The inside of the quality bar locks are marked �J.S�, which I presume is for John Stanton. The conversion is fairly well done, with filled and re-engraved pin holes; a sliding extractor fitted around the lump under the barrels, with corresponding grooves on the action bar; firing pin assemblies fitted through the fences, and replacement hammers with matching engraving. On the barrel flats between the lugs is stamped �T & L�. Could this possibly be for Tipping & Lawden, who may have performed the conversion? I�m aware T. Murcott was an agent for Tipping & Lawden before starting his own business. Might anyone have information that suggests business links might have been maintained?

The stock escutcheon is engraved �RBS, 28th Regt�, which would appear to be for Capt. Robert Burn Singer of the 28th (The North Gloucestershire) Regiment of Foot.

Any information on surviving Murcott pinfires would be very welcome!

Hello Steve Nash
Welcome on your first posting

Something like this?
https://goo.gl/images/HGHU76

http://www.positiveshooting.com/HistoryoftheSportingGun.html

https://goo.gl/images/i4kcAA

https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-f...un_id=101009654

https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-f...un_id=100923953

Thank you, Skeettx, for your kind welcome and links. The stock photo of the Murcott pinfire with the R. Adams action (Patent no. 285 of 1860) is the only other Murcott pinfire game gun I've been able to find mention of. Mine is but the generic unmarked double-bite Jones-type underlever, though it was originally of good quality.

Available serial number information is sparse. Nigel Brown gives a c.1867 date for no. 490, and gives no. 1877 the wide range of 1875-1887! I may have to live with a range of 1866-1870 or so.

This was indeed my first post, but it won't be my last. I have been researching the British pinfire game gun for more than 20 years, and I'm working towards a book on the subject. I am new to becoming involved in message boards, however. Now I just need to figure out how to add photos to posts.

Mr. Nash, this is an interesting subject for me. I have been collecting and shooting pinfires [shotguns] for some years and have a few from several countries including some British. I cannot give you any specific answers on your questions off of the top of my head, but will look for some information. It has been my experience that many, especially British, pinfires were conversions from muzzle loaders. Then later some pinfires were converted to centerfires such as yours. Lots of history there.

One question. Are the JS marked locks in your gun the rebounding type ?

Daryl Hallquist darylh1942@gmail.com

wait a minute, didnt murcott play third base for the astros back in the fifties...or am i thinkin o anutter mercotte?

Steve, glad to see you found your way here. I'm still marveling at your pinfire assortment we got a chance to see a couple weeks ago at the SxS shoot in Oshawa. So glad you joined us.

James

Mr. Hallquist, it is good to hear from a fellow pinfire collector. They were, for a very short time, the best sporting guns in the world!

Indeed, it was not unusual to have one's prized muzzle-loader converted to the pinfire system, or have their pinfire converted to centre-fire, and some conversions are devilishly difficult to spot. I have acquired seven other conversions: a 12-bore pinfire by George Fuller of London, converted from percussion; a 16-bore single-barrel pinfire gun by Thomas George Sylven of London (a specialist in conversions), made with a barrel from a R. Seffens muzzle-loader; a 10-bore pinfire by James Woodward of London, converting a Charles Moore pellet-lock; a 12-bore pinfire by an unknown English maker, converted from percussion; a 12-bore pinfire by The Breechloading Armoury of London, converted to fire both pinfire and centre-fire shells; a 12-bore pinfire by William Powell of Birmingham, also converted to dual-fire; and a 12-bore pinfire by Westley Richards of Birmingham, converted to centre-fire only by Westley Richards according to their patent no. 1960 of 1866.

To your question, the Murcott pinfire conversion retained its non-rebounding locks, which suggests to me it was an early effort, as a conversion made much after 1871 would likely have included the rebounding feature.

James, thanks for encouraging me to take the plunge into the message boards. I expect I'll be posting here quite a bit, with lots of photos to follow. And I'm looking forward to the next SxS meet, a thoroughly enjoyable event!

Steve

Hi Steve;
I am not a pinfire collector as such as I only have one. This one is a W&C Scott 12 gauge bar in wood. A Mr Crawford who was once representative for Scott in the US did some research on it. It was not serial numbered which he said was the first Scott he had knowledge of which was not numbered. It was marked on the top rib who it was made for, which was a Benjamin D Kennedy from Louisville KY, USA.

It is a top lever opener built on a Matthews patent. Mr Crawford estimated its build date as between 1863-65 as Matthews patent he said was issued in 1863, but also believes it to pre-date the Scott Spindle. It bolts with a single underbolt. I do not know if this gun was a conversion or not. He stated it would have been an A grade.

I acquired it from a gentleman who lived in Louisville. He had tried to research Mr Kennedy. all he was ever able to find was that he was issued a business license for a Jewelry Store for several years which included the time frame this gun was built. He apparently was neither born nor died in Louisville as no birth or death records were found.

I once had a Boss gun which was originally pin-fire but converted to center-fire. I seriously considered restoring it but passed it along to someone else. A small profit beats a money pit every time!...Geo

How interesting. I have one W&C Scott & Son pinfire, a Jones-type double grip underlever 12-bore made in 1866, s/n 11617. Though from a Birmingham gunmaker, the gun carries London proofs and the "7 Dorset Place Pall Mall London" showroom address. My understanding is that W & C Scott & Son pinfires were made in three qualities, A, B and C, and within these were varying grades. Mine appears to be a higher (though perhaps not highest) grade of the plain �C� quality. You are most fortunate to have an "A" gun! I have never seen one, and I have never come across a Matthews patent action.

It is always interesting to be able to identify the original owner to a gun. It is a good reminder that these guns are not just objects, but were once someone's prize possession. Thank you for sharing the information on your gun.

Only 735 pinfire guns were built by Boss & Co. between 1858 and 1871, and very few of these have survived intact - most were converted to center-fire at a later date. The Murcott I mentioned in my original post has completely worn checkering, like the Boss in your picture. Just imagine how many hours of handling in the field, and how many pinfire and center-fire cartridges these guns must have fired, to show such wear. These guns had to survive the conversion process as well. Thanks for sharing your photo.

Steve, that Boss was built in 1860. I obtained the build sheet from Boss. My research revealed a Royal connection...Geo

I love beginning posts here with "A Boss gun I once owned"!

Steve;
My Scott pinfire reads on the top rib from breech toward muzzle;

W&C Scott & Son 7 Dorset Place, Pall Mall East, London For Benj D Kennedy, Louisville KY

Each lock plate reads W&C Scott & Son, locks are bar action.
Proof marks are London of the 1855-1868 type.
IF for a cylinder bored gun (which this one is) & given the provisional plus definitive proofs rather than the combined proof the marks could have stayed the same up till 1887.

Mr. Nash,
I am a Powell collector and have both pinfires and conversions. Would love to know
more about your Powell - especially the serial number and "Powell's Patent" number.
Steve Helsley

Ha! Older Boss guns do not show up very often.

I have been lucky enough to find three Boss pinfires. Nos. 2024 and 2068, double screw grip guns built in 1863 for Charles-Cecil Martyn and Sir Sandford Graham, and no. 2201 built in 1864 a single-barrel screw grip gun, ordered by Sir John Harpur-Crewe. Thankfully they are in their original condition.

Wonderful! My Powell is a double-barrelled bar-in-wood 12-bore, no. 3790, converted to dual pin-/centre-fire. The top rib is marked "William Powell & Son No. 3790". The shortened 27� barrels have the initials �J. A.� stamped underneath � a maker�s mark? The barrels are fitted with an extractor and the pin holes have been left unfilled. The gun has the push-up single bite snap lever action (Powell's patent no. 1163 of 1864), and bar locks. As to the history of the gun, it was first completed on 9 November 1866 for H. W. Lord, under the serial number 3690. This name has been crossed out in the company ledger, and the gun was renumbered and sold again on 16 December 1869 under serial number 3790 to J. B. Dellap (listed as "best patent breech loader, best damascus barrels, 30 in., 73 lb.," for �25).

Mr. Nash, I am curious about the rim size cut out in your dual fire gun. Most pinfire rims are smaller than centerfire rims. In any event, it seems one rim or the other might not fit properly in the same gun.

Mr. Nash,
Thank you.

I'd like to send you some information. May I have your email address?

I'd also like the Powell's Patent number from the action flat. It should be
in the 200-range. The serial number can be changed without the PP
number changing.

I'm very interested in which extractor system you have.
Steve

I don't have the best caliper, but the rim recess seems to measure about 1-1.25mm, and a 12-bore cartridge fits in it, no problem. I've not fired the gun, but I can speculate that since the pinfire cartridge would not be wholly supported at this junction, split cases might have occurred, particularly with very thin brass. As a typical pinfire gun-case tool was a cartridge extractor, then split brass, swollen paper, broken pins etc. must have been regular occurrences in any case.

Mr. Helsley, I've sent you a PM.

As to the gun, there is no patent number on the action flat. As the dual-fire conversion appears to have been done after delivery (the hammers have extra metal brazed on them to hit the strikers - I presume if it was purpose-built as a dual-fire the hammers would have been made one-piece), and notches in the action face have been cut parallel to the slot to make room for the extractor, perhaps the patent number was lost in the process? I will send photos, and find a way to post photos on the DoubleGun BBS.

While I was given the information that appeared in the Powell ledger, the gun itself displays only one serial number, 3790. There are no obliterated numbers on the gun.

It seems that no matter how much information comes to light, there is always another mystery.

Steve

Mr. Nash, ok. I have seen a few dual fire guns in various states of refinement. I always wondered if the "old" rim cut of the pinfire gave way to the new sized rim of the centerfire. Hard to have it perfect in both instances.

I hope no one minds me resurrecting this thread and perhaps taking it off on a slight tangent.

Geo, I have a 12g pinfire gun that very closely resembles the Boss in your picture, except that mine is signed George Fuller of 280 Strand. The barrels are marked "JP" (John Portluck) and the locks are initialled internally "JS" (John Stanton). The gun also has a stamp on the knuckle of the forend steel "65 2", which a friend has suggested may be a date, i.e. February 1865, although serial number progression, i.e. known numbers/dates > est. guns/year (30) would put it 3 years earlier. Donald Dallas remarked when I showed the Fuller to him earlier this year that it resembled a Boss he owned, and suggested that Boss and Fuller probably shared many of the same craftsmen.

George don't mind if we pick on old scab....do you George.



Yonder tOe'mato stake....

Brings back such fond memories of working in my gran pappies garden.

I guess a claim of profit makes one feel better eh geOrge.

Alas, it was but a very small profit jOe...Geo

Jules, I have a Fuller gun which is a centrefire 12 bore hammer gun. He made top notch stuff. I know someone over here who has put a lot of research into George Fuller and may be able to put you in touch as I am sure he would be interested in details. Fuller died in 1880 with no one to carry on the business. He was a contemporary and rival of the likes of Boss and Purdey and put out work equally as fine but is much lesser known as a result of his business failing to be carried on. Fuller was well known for making live pigeon trap guns in the muzzle loading era. Couple of questions regarding your Fuller. Does it carry the engraving of a rather odd looking tree stump on the top rib at the breech end? Does it mention Maker to His Royal Highness the Late Prince Consort? Thanks. Lagopus�..

I'm glad to see this thread revived! Still hoping for Murcott information...

I have a George Fuller pinfire. On the face of it it is a standard double-bite rotary underlever 12-bore, but upon closer examination, it has some peculiarities.

The serial number is 245, marked on the trigger guard tang only. The twist (not damascus) barrels are 26 1/2 inch, with London proofs. The barrels have a wide top rib, signed �Geo. Fuller. 10. Wardour St. Soho. London.� The stepped back-action locks are signed �Geo.E Fuller�. The trigger guard bow has game scene engraving (obscured by the lever when closed), and together with a slight mismatch in border engraving where the lock meets the breech, suggesting slightly cut lock plates, I'm presuming this is a very well-accomplished conversion from percussion.

George Fuller is listed as a gunmaker at 104 Wardour St. in 1845, and at 280 Strand for the period 1856-1871. There is no explanation for the �10 Wardour St.� address on the rib (it is definitely a 10, and not a worn 104). The serial number might place it in the 1850 range for a Fuller gun (according to data published in Nigel Brown's books), though not all makers followed perfectly sequential numbers, and dating just with serial numbers is a risk. The conversion would have to have been post-1862, with the unmarked double screw-grip.

John Portlock was definitely a sought-after barrel man. The Fuller barrels described above do not have the JP mark, but two Boss pinfires that I have do (numbers 2024 and 2068). Together with E.C. Hodges doing the actioning for top makers at the time, and top-grade lock makers and engravers, it is not surprising there is a similarity amongst the top quality guns of the day.

Just for information, the 1860 Boss gun I once owned and which is pictured above had the rotary underlever, but with only one bite rather than two. That was part of my rationale for discontinuing the restoration I'd hoped for. Well, that and the rather airish barrels...Geo