doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com OT: rimfire and rifle caliber shell shot sizes?

I have messed with several rimfire "shotguns" over the years, mainly for pest control (Remington 510 and Win 61 in .22 shot) but also just because the guns had interesting actions or some value (Stevens "Maynard" Model 101 in .44 CF shot and Win Model 36 in 9mmRF shot).

The .22 shot ammo I have had was all marked #12. But the others were unmarked or the shot size marking had disappeared with age.

It makes sense to me that these little shotshells were loaded with fine shot, since they were mostly used to kill little pests at little ranges.

But were they available in other sizes than #12? The ".44 Shot" cases at least look like they could hold a useful load of shot a little larger than #12s....

My memory is sometimes 'fanciful' but I swear there was a .22 shotshell which contained 3 pellets of appropriate size and 'tepee folded' at the front. I haven't seen them for years and cannot seem to find anything on them now making me wonder if it was all a fevered dream.

The 9mm Glatt comes in 6,7,8 and 9 from Fiocchi as far as I know. I'm not certain on the .22. I imagine its very fine because there is not a lot of room in the shot cup. Fine shot would mean at least SOME semblance of a pattern. Just my thoughts...

I like shot shells for snakes. The .22 will work, but is pretty anemic. The .38 version is a killer though. When I'm in the woods down here I usually have my revolver loaded with two snake-shot first and then regular solids...Geo

Why kill snakes instead of just walking around them?

why kill anything?

To be able to eat them, kind of hard when they are wiggling
I see little difference between shooting doves or deer
and cutting the heads of wheat, digging up potatoes,
or radishes, in order to eat.

I don't eat them. I also rarely kill one. If I find a moccasin around my boat ramp though I get rid of it. If I happen to get too near a rattler in the woods I'll kill it instead of risking a bite. Nearly all Diamondbacks will back away from you if you'll let them, a Canebrake is not so reliable. I don't worry about Pygmies and just step over them, and rarely ever see a Copperhead or a Coral. I know my snakes and I know which ones to kill...Geo

And which ones not to.

Glad to hear that, George. Too many people still kill snakes just to kill snakes.

I used to shoot dragonflies over my pond with a 9mm Flobert. #12 shot cartridges from Fiocchi.
I've seen the 3 shots of buck rounds before. So that wasn't delirium.

As far as snakes, you haven't lived until you've reached into the layin' box and grabbed about an 8' Rat snake. Shitcherbritches!

As a conservationist I do what I can to help there be MORE of them. Even the little rattlers.

MI has I think about 20 different snakes. 1 maybe 2 venomous.
But, old habits die hard, so many people kill every snake they see.
Before we are all dead, we will see/learn what the effect of the loss of the insects, reptiles, and amphibians does to things.

All that said, an 18' King Cobra pop's up in front of me, and I believe ol' Nag would be as tall as me. I'd shoot. Then ....go cleanse myself.

My box of Winchester .44 X.L. cartridges are marked No. 8 Shot. In my 1915-16 Remington Arms - Union Metallic Cartridge Co. catalog both the .44 Winchester Shot and the .44 X.L. Shot are listed as standard with No. 8 but could be ordered with anything from No. 5 down to Dust.

Rem-UMC offered rim fire shot cartridges in .22 B.B. Cap, .22 Long, .32 Long, .38 Short, .56-50 Spencer and .41 Swiss. In central fire they offered .32 Smith and Wesson; .32 Long Colt; .32 Winchester; .38 Smith and Wesson; .38 Long Colt; .44 Smith and Wesson, Russian; .44 Winchester; .44 Marble Game Getter; .44 X.L.; .38-55 Winchester, Marlin and Savage; .45-70 Government; 11 M-M Mauser and .43 Egyptian.

I used to have a 6" barreled Ruger .22/.22WMR Single-Six, before it was stolen out of my pickup. I carried .22 Mag shot cartridges in it when in rattler or cottonmouth stomping grounds, and it was very good on them. When shot in the head/neck area they don't thrash about, usually. They just flinch a bit, start bleeding from the little holes, and die.



One is not always walking when one encounters a cottonmouth or rattler. Sometimes one is in a paddle boat with overhead limbs, where they like to lay in the sun. When frightened as one passes underneath, said snake will often drop off the limb and land right in the boat at your feet. Not a good scenario. No. 12 shot will imbed in the wood, but not make a leaking hole in it, and it will do the deal on a big cottonmouth at 3 feet. And, don't even say that a canebrake won't get wet or sun on a limb over water. I've had big cottonmouths to try their best to get into the boat with me, when swimming. Why, I haven't a clue.................. Okefenokee Joe says they are not aggressive. Maybe I just mistake their intentions when they clearly see me and come towards me very fast. Perhaps they're just coming over to say hello...............at handshaking distance.

SRH

Up here in the northeast, I've been known to get out of my truck and remove snakes from the road to prevent them from being killed. Especially, the snakes who consume rodents - they are very helpful when the woods are infested with chipmunks. That said, during the time I spent in Georgia, I never saw any shortage of cottonmouths. In fact, I would say it was quite the opposite. The way I see it, if a poisonous snake puts a man's well-being in danger, it does not seem inappropriate for a man to defend himself. Just my thoughts on the subject...

I live in town. But I have a fish pond in my backyard and big trees and shrubbery. I've never had a poisonous snake, but surprisingly have a good many Gray Rat Snakes and water snakes in the pond, mostly Banded or Red-bellied Water Snakes.

I've raised five children in this home, three of them boys. Once
the boys killed a Banded Water Snake with a bow and arrow. I took that opportunity to explain to them the value of the snakes we have and my own personal ethic about snake killing. Teaching the boys to turkey hunt we've run across lots of Moccasins and Rattlers. We walk around them unless they get scary; then they're dead.

While I appreciate the non-poisonous snakes I will not have the bad guys around my home. However, like I said I live in town and have never seen any of the poison varieties in the yard...Geo

One of our local Churches has an annual "Wild Game Cookout", and fried rattlesnake is one of the most popular items. In Alabama all snakes are protected, except the venomous ones. Snakes eat rats(mice) and I hate rats.
Mike

In Tennessee the Venomous ones are protected too. Several years back a good friend of mine who was working as a Deputy Sheriff killed a rattlesnake on a public beach. Someone took a picture of it & sent it to the local Newspaper. A few days later a TWRA agent showed up at his house. He explained it was on a public beach which was full of young people & got off with a "Warning". He told me under the same circumstances he would do the same thing again BUT he would make certain no one took a picture.

Researcher and all, thanks for the info. Someday soon I'm gonna try to make up some .44XL shotshells and try my Stevens 101 out on cottontails with a little load of 4s or 5s. I've fired it with single.427 roundballs and seen no danger signs. It dates from the smokeless powder era and is chokeless.

I only mess with poisonous snakes when they are in areas frequented by lots of kids and dogs. We have LOTS of rattlesnakes here but they are really very unaggressive. You just need to know where they are and where your hands and feet are and make SURE they are not the in same place. And keep your kids and dogs under strict control (not a bad idea anyway). I shoot snakes when they get into or under buildings, including but not limited to outhouses.

Cottonmouths scare me, but then I'm a squeamish Yankee....

Mike A.
My cousin has a Stevens in 44XL, and I gave him some 7x57R cases for his loads. Cut to length, they worked well, 8x57R would work also. I had some shot loads based on 30-40 cases that worked OK, but were smaller in diameter. I think he used #8 shot, but don't remember powder load. He closed them off with a card wad and waterglass. You could also use Titebond.
Mike

I've never seen a rattler that would not leave the vicinity of a human if he had the chance and felt threatened. Cottonmouths are a whole different thing.

We were once gigging bullfrogs in a pond of ours at night, in a paddle boat. We came around a little point of land and there was a very healthy canebrake rattler in a coil .............floating in about 6 ft. of water, about 5 yards out from the bank. Never saw that before or since. I was shining and paddling and my bud was gigging. He stuck that big rattler with that gig before I knew what he was doing. Said rattler was most unhappy about the situation. Can't say I blamed him.

I go out of my way to leave them alone if they are away from where people work or inhabit. They've got a tough life. But, I make no apologies for killing rattlers and cottonmouths where they are near people.

SRH

Mike, Thanks for the tips. I'll have my eyes open for European rimmed Mauser style ctg. cases at the next big gunshow I attend. Won't need many. Or I may just advertise for some in various gun-related WTB sites. SOMEBODY must shoot 'em and not reload....

You might also check out the .444 Marlin. I have made shot shells for use in a .45 Colt out of them. Can also load a short .410 so should work for the .44XL.

Mike A.
With Z&B and others bringing it in, and Hornady now providing 9.3x74 ammo, cases should be pretty available( Z&B should be cheapest, but is still good boxer primed brass). If you still can't find any after a few months, PM me.
Mike

Thanks, Mike and Miller. I used to find once-fired .444 brass on the firing lines at my club in Eastern NYS right before deer season and used them to make .410 "Everlasting" shells for small game hunting. I suspect .44 Magnum cases could be rigged to fit in the Stevens .44XL Shot as well.

BUT (my big butt) I notice that Frank de Haas's book mentions that many of the Stevens 101s with the "Marksman" action like mine were rechambered to .410 shotshell in his time and shot loose quickly. So this action needs MILD loads.

I fired a .44-40 "Cowboy" load in mine some years ago but haven't tried that again since I read Frank's piece. Not a great test-bed for ballistic experiments, it seems to me. (But kinda cute!).

I use 444 cases to load "bee loads" for a 410 pistol. Since they are simi-rimmed, I have to be very careful to keep the rims ahead of the extractor. I agree you need mild loads.
Mike

Found a guy on the internet who used .44-40 cases loaded with "about" 1/3 oz. of 7s in a .44 Magnum plastic shot cap in a Stevens like mine.

Patterns were nothing to write home about but adequate for potting small game, which is, I think, the whole point of the .44 XL Shot ctg. unless you have a true "plague of serpents."

(Of course back in the days it was created ANY serpent was considered a "plague"!).