doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com I'm new to SXS shotguns, but love them

Hi all,

Wanted to say hello to everyone. I'm brand new to SXS shotguns, but I absolutely think they're gorgeous shotguns. I've been shooting for over 20 years, and just a month ago I shot my first SXS.

I am especially fond of sidelock hammer guns. For my first SXS hammer guns, I wanted something that I could shoot regularly with standard factory Win AA loads and not worry about excessive PSI in older barrels. I met a gunmaker in Ione, CA who used to work for Purdey. I originally met him because I needed to get my sporting clays shotgun fitted to me. His name is Dale Tate for anyone interested.

I have two hammer guns from Dale Tate: a 12ga pigeon gun and a 20ga game gun.

Does anyone know more about Dale Tate and his hammer guns? Would love to learn more about them and see what others' opinions are about them.



I'm going to attend the California Sporting Clays Championship June 14th - 17th if anyone else is planning on attending.

Here are some pictures of the 12ga pigeon gun. It's number 009 out of 050.

Here is my 20ga game hammer gun. Number 028 out of 050.

Dale Tate is a first class gentleman. Have met him at the Southern Side by Side event years ago.
He imported Siace guns years ago and did his personal thing to them. I understand there were some issues with the guns with weak firing pins, springs and such He would make them right and tight so to speak. He also imported some AYA guns and did his own thing to them as well.
You have two outstanding guns!

What PALUNC said. Dale is a wonderful craftsman and altogether good guy. You have a set of beautiful guns.

I am so glad to see that with your new infatuation with shotguns, no one has tried to take advantage of you and sell you any expensive examples of the art...Geo

Magnificent pair of hammer-guns by the way!

You are starting out with a gorgeous set of guns.

wonderful!

Nice guns! Congratulations!

Dale Tate is a good guy and entertaining to talk to.

He is a first class craftsman as well.

Beautiful - you skipped the step where you buy a bunch of clapped out guns first and learn hard-earned and expensive lessons though

You've come far, pilgrim.

Beautiful guns. May you shoot them as well as they deserve.

SRH

Lovely guns. Presented so nicely against the red case.
So many questions.
Base gun he started with.
How much was done to them.
Cost.
I don't mean to be rude, just very curious as to their birth.
O.M

So it wasn't just me....

http://doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=226555&page=1

Bob,
Thanks for sharing your experience, scary as it is. Sometimes it is worth being upside down on a gun simply to save a nice example of one.
Dan,
Looks like you are starting off in perfect fashion. Welcome to the board!
Karl

Wow those are two incredible guns! The butt pad on the first gun is the best I have seen

Welcome to the board. Tate is a class act in every respect. Very nice guns. What a way to start. Congrats!!

DDA

Thanks all for the welcome and compliments. I didn't expect a Tate hammer gun to be so well known with a warm reception. I assumed they were obscure hammer guns that no one ever heard of.

These started out as SIACE �in the white� parts and Dale Tate from Purdey fitted and regulated the action. The barrels were sent to London to be proofed. Charles Lee from Purdey did the engraving. Bill Harvey did the stock work. Pretty much Italian base worked on by Englishmen.

I know what it costs to purchase these Tate hammer guns from owners who are willing to part with them. I was curious as to what others with more experience think the 12ga and 20ga are worth?

Thanks

Thanks, dhanks.
For that explanation.
O.M

dhanks, what pitcher up loader are you using?

What is a pitcher up loader?

He's asking what picture host you are using to upload your very high quality photos of your guns. Ed's a smart guy but he talks funny some times...Geo

Really weird.

imgur.com

the hosting service you use to up load digital images to this website...

Theres a video on You Tube that has Dale Tate in it with Chris Batha.
It's Chris's "Wingshooting the World" series. Dale is coaching some shooters as well as CB out west shooting driven pheasants.
So tell, how well do you shoot with them?

Dale is still finishing up the 12ga; he should have it ready next week before the CA Championship. I plan on using it for the SXS competition. No idea how I will do with it.

I never seen that particular video with Dale Tate before. Great find!
I love shooting with Dale. Super smart and very funny guy. I've been training with him for about three months and he's really helped me learn sporting clays and how to bust the targets.

I will watch for the scores from the CA Championship online.

Will your name be decipherable from your dhanks "handle"?

SRH

Doug Hanks. No hopes for a high score though. My first competition and a brand new gun being used.

Good luck, Doug. I'll be pulling for ya'.

I'll be shooting the GA State Championships weekend after next. I will shoot the 5 stand, the S x S, sub-gauge and the Prelim, but not the Main event. I hate that they scheduled it on Father's Day weekend, but I intend to spend Father's Day here with family. My choice.

SRH

geo.: lotta smart guys talk funny, like dim kennedy boys fur zample...

dhanks: thanks for tip, re pitcher loader...

testing imgur.com...this is link to image of jp sauer # 163xxx, made in 1911...

hey! it worked!

tanks ahgin hanks...

Doug, thought you might find the following interesting.

Handling properties of Tate #08 are in my handling data base.

12 bore top lever hammer gun, 30" bbls, 15" LOP, 7# 7 oz, 4 3/4" balance to front trigger, 1.95 unmounted swing effort, 8.21 mounted swing effort, and 11.02 compactness.

Gun #08 is a poster child for lighter weight live pigeon guns. Compare to the following Scott Pigeon Club TLHG: 12 bore, 30" bbls, 15" LOP, 7# 14 oz, 5" balance, 1.98 unmounted swing, 8.75 mounted, and 10.81 compactness.

DDA

Hi all,

I received a new macro lens for my camera today and I needed something to test it out with. I decided to take a few pictures of my Tate 20ga hammer gun.

I also had Dale Tate document the provenance of my 028 hammer gun. Here is the following text from his hand-written letter:

• Gun 20g 30" barrels game gun bar action
• Semi beaver tail forend
• None ejector ham/gun
• Prince of wales stock
• Barrels proofed and regulated by Atkin Grant and Lang London
• Engraving by Charles Lee from Purdey
• Action filed and regulated by Tate from Purdey
• Stock and forend by Bill Harvey Maryland
• Hammers on gun new castle style I.E. PaPE
• Greener cross bolt
• Purdey double bite
• Anson push rod forend
• London silvers recoil pad

Here are the up close macro shots of various engravings of the hammer gun.

Hanks,
I'd say that the camera and lens combination work well together. Thanks for sharing such nice sharp photos of your beautiful gun.
Karl

Great pics. I noted that in one pic of the left lock area you can easily see the relief in the inletting directly behind the tail of the lockplate. This is exactly as it should be on a sidelock to prevent splitting of the wood over time. I just had an L C Smith done, and it looks exactly like that.

SRH

Are you sure about that gap behind the locks as the �right way�, Stan? Looks like a place where water could get in to me.

No gaps for me. The better sidelocks have a draw that pulls the side plate into the action alleviating the hammer from pushing the lock back into the wood.

Sans draw wouldn�t you think having a gap would then allow the sideplate to gain momentum in its movement to fill said gap, thus creating higher chance of cracking?

I�ve got Woodward�s, Purdeys, Boss, H&H, Rigby, and many more sidelocks in the shop, none have gaps nor any cracking behind the plate. I matched the inletting quality of the Woodward�s on their new stocks for good measure.

I have a picture of the inletting on the Tate 12 bore, which in my opinion has a much better fit. Please see below.




Once I get the 12 bore back from Dale Tate this weekend, I can take better pictures of it and share. I believe it has a very tight fit between the side locks and stock. As you can see the inside of the stock has a lot of inletting for all the parts of the side locks.

I will retract that statement. But, I will say that, IMO, LC Smiths should have a bit of relief in the rear of the lock inlets, because of the lack of area where the head of the stock contacts the action. There is precious little area for recoil absorption on a Smith stock, and it needs some "help". I know some will say that they have a Smith that has no sign of a crack and that there is no gap, but they may own a gun with a less compressible stock head, or it hasn't been shot a lot, etc.

In a conversation once, Nick Makinson told me that, when shot enough with heavy enough loads, all makes of sidelocks will eventually begin to crack behind the lockplate. He may have been wrong........... I have two other sidelock guns of other makes, that are not cracked behind the lockplates, and do not have large gaps in the inletting at the tail of the lockplate, but they may not have been shot nearly as much as my LC Smith.

I really don't know what the big deal is about a little water getting in around the locks. If you care for your guns properly you are going to pull the locks after using the gun in the rain anyway. Regardless, a little paste wax rubbed on and buffed off will keep small amounts of water out.

SRH

As promised, I was able to take some more pictures today. I removed the side locks on the Dale Tate 20 bore and took closeups of the stock, side locks, and the beveled edge of the side locks.

It appears that Bill Harvey did a lot of inletting on the Tate hammer guns.

The Tate side locks are pretty simple and take the Purdey design.

My basic understanding is that high-end English side locks have a beveled edge all the way around, which prevents splitting of the stock. I read that a lot of cheaper and mid-range side locks have a straight edge around the side locks.

You can see the beveled perimeter of the side locks here on this Tate hammer gun:

The bevel on the lockplate really doesn't prevent the splitting. What it does is allows for a tighter fit when inletting. I have inletted sidelocks myself, and understand the reason for the bevel. Meticulous inletting is a joy, but a bit of clearance may be called for at times. This is a pic of an inlet I did. I beveled the edges of the lockplate on it.





The issue is that a sidelock's overall shape is that of a wedge, on the rear. Recoil wants to force that wedge into the mating shape of the wood inlet. If the head of the stock gives any at all, or if the hand pin/tang screw is not fully tight, movement begins to force that wedge into the wood of the inlet, forcing the upper and lower halves of the inlet apart. Thus, a crack begins. Sometime only at the rear of the lockplate, sometimes at the rear end of the tang.

Your guns may have much more mating surface at the head of the stock than a Smith, Doug. It would be very hard for them to have less. They are very nice guns.

SRH

Stan,

Thanks for sharing your pictures of the Smith and your knowledge. Great job on the inletting.