doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com dating verney carron shotguns

have in hand, two very nice 16ga verney carron field guns...one is #3xx and the other is #39xxx...if you can, please advise approximate dates of mfgr...

they are both side by side box locks with double under lugs...the later gun has a greener type cross bolt...

V-C records were lost in WWII. French guns are hard to date.

yeah, i know...google search provided some info, but not much...that is why i came here...hopefully, argo, our resident frenchie gon expert will have some input...anyway, these little guns are incredibly light weight...the early gun weighs just 5 1/2 pounds...the later gun weighs 5 3/4 pound...la bird gons extra doe naire...

reminds me of good times gone by...used to hunt with a french chef and his griffon, in northern westchester cty ny in the eighties, when there were still lots of grouse in the woods, fifty miles north of midtown manhattan...he was a wonderful shot and created dishes that were absolutely superb...

Ed, can't help with VC serial numbers. You might post some pictures of the barrels, flats, water table, etc, usual stuff. Maybe, Larry, or I or Ramey or Ted will recognize something. And you always could post it on the French chat board http://www.passionlachasse.com/forum

argo: thanks for link to french chat board...

Ed, if you can determine the model (sometimes marked on the gun), you might be able to get an approximate range of dates. The first V-C I ever owned, I wrote to them for further information. They told me they no longer had the records. However, based on the model, they were able to tell me when it first appeared (1933), and even sent me pages from a period catalog describing the model in question. Didn't nail down the specific year of production, but very helpful. In fact, really more helpful than just having a date.

l: no model numbers...early gun receiver is stamped verney carron...later gun receiver is stamped verney carron fres...early gun top lever is relief engraved "helice grip"...

and early gun receiver is schluped, whereas later gun receiver is not...

Wasn't the name Verney-Carron fr�res used from the late 1800s till say WWI(1917 or the end of WWI?)? Images would be most beneficial, especially of the marks.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Indeed, here it is:


".....On Claude Verney-Carron's death in 1870, the business appropriately took on the name of Verney-Carron Fr�res (Brothers), which it retained until 1917....."

https://www.verney-carron.com/pages-us2/historique2.cfm

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

According to a letter I received from V-C, they patented the Helice system in the early 20th century (no exact date provided). "Helice Grip" was patented as one of their trademarks in 1907. So it could go back that far.

Where is Argo44? Bill Harriman gives it was in 1904?

"The Verney Carron Helice shotgun was first designed in 1904. The name Helice refers to the screw thread-like system, which formed the third locking point on the action.
Read more at http://www.shootinguk.co.uk/answers/can-you-tell-me-about-my-verney-carron-16-bore-helice-shotgun-25163#O1I17hbPmiu2XABl.99"

http://www.shootinguk.co.uk/answers/can-...e-shotgun-25163

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Could be 1904 if this cat is the real deal:

"Sorry, the first part of message has gone away and disappeared!so after you read part 2, I am going to rewrite part 1 :
'Helice' stands for 'Helicoidal', since the lever is helicoidal. You can find guns from France and in particular from Saint-Etienne with 'Helice gripp' or 'Helice grip'or 'Helice block'. Those systems were patented. Many of the guns produced by my family have 'Helice gripp' engraved on the top lever.I also found out that Verney-Carron in 1904 developped the Helice grip system as a variation of the 'Webley-4 locks system'.
Not beeing a technician, I have dificulties to translate the info I have got. Anyway, British amateurs can be proud: William Anson invented the top-lever! A. Rousson was one of the first M.O.F. which means Meilleur Ouvrier de France(the best worker in his specialty when industry and art meet).now you can read the previous message , hope it makes sense
Cheers
M.Maisonnial"

https://www.internetgunclub.com/archived-forum/posts.php?topicid=722

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

have come to conclusion that lighter early gun, 5 1/2 pounds, is pre ww1...later heavier gun, 5 3/4 pounds, is post ww1...which, begs the question, how come french 16's are so light weight and so many others are so heavy?

answer is, only the french can produce such light weight delights, such as, bardot, beaujolais and souffle...

I'm here. We've talked several times about VC and the patent filed by him under at least three names and its relationship to the generic "helice" found on dozens of French keys. I've photos of about 45 keys with this on them for comparison and will make a montage at some point for reference. But Ed knows how to post photos so until he does, let's sit on our hands (as Botvinnik advised a young chess player when I was just starting to pay chess in the early 1950's).

Per the 1922 V-C catalog (several years after the invention and patent of the Helice system by V-C), the only two copyrighted names they were using that included some form of "Helice" were: "Helice Grip" and "HelicoBloc". However, other forms of "Helice" were later used by V-C. For example, I owned a V-C 16ga with "Helice 33" on the top lever (the 33 indicating the year of the gun's introduction). That was apparently the first V-C double on which the traditional flat leaf springs were replaced with "rust-resistant" coil springs. That according to the pages from the contemporary catalog I received from V-C when I inquired about my Helice 33.

did vc resume production of 16 ga sxs guns after ww2?

"... only the french can produce such light weight delights, such as, bardot, beaujolais and souffle..." Ed Good

That's a keeper...Geo